The "Hawaiian Air Depot" Camouflage Scheme

[varsity07840]

Try to find a clear shot of Robert Richards' B-17C that overshot the runway at Bellows Field - it has a large "49" in black on the fin (40-2049).

I'm only interested in the B-17Es, but the photos of 40-2049 confirm that these aircraft carried tail numbers when they arrived in Hawaii.

The C models had 2 digit plane in group numbers(without the group designator) because they were in service for quite some time. The E models were brand new and were picked up at modification depots just prior to the flight to Hawaii. The elimination of the plane in group
number system in lieu of serial number markings on the rudder had been ordered shortly before Dec. 7th. I don't recall ever seeing a pre-war photo of an Army a/c with the new type markings applied. But, I'll admit, that doesn't mean that no a/c
had them prior to Dec 7th.

Duane

[Steve Birdsall]

The B-17Es never had "plane in group numbers" on the tail . . . just the radio call. The B-17Es that arrived in Hawaii on 7 December 1941 had been with the 7th Bomb Group at Fort Douglas for varying periods from 29 October (41-2408) to 29 November (41-2429, 41-2430, 41-2432, 41-2433 and 41-2434).

As I said, I'm not interested in planes that were already in Hawaii, or B-17Cs and B-17Ds. Just the B-17Es, and how many of them were repainted by the Hawaiian Air Depot. It looks like that certainly applied to all of the 7 December arrivals unless somebody can prove otherwise.

[varsity07840]

It looks like that certainly applied to all of the 7 December arrivals unless somebody can prove otherwise.

I think you're right about that.

Duane

[Steve Birdsall]

I'd better elaborate a bit on that last post. As far as I know, radio call numbers began appearing in November 1941. So maybe not all of the B-17Es had been brought up to that standard before leaving the U.S. That might account for the difference in size of the radio call numbers on some of these aircraft. The only thing that will sort this out is more photos, accurately dated and uncensored, and they're hard to find.

[OldBillB17F]

From my collection...

41-2403 without the camo scheme (and retrofitted with ball turret)


41-2444 taken from same video (I believe this is Henderson Field)


41-2434


Unidentified B-17E on blocks. Would love to know what bird this is.

[aerovin2]

As a point of interest even if off topic, B-17C 40-2047 was based at Salt Lake in late October 1941 when it was sent to McClellan Field (Sacramento) when it crashed on 11/2/41 enroute. This airplane was camouflaged in standard olive drab and grey and had the radio call ("02047") painted on the vertical stabilizer, evidenced from the remnants of markings observed at the crash site. Can't say what color it was...presumably yellow. I believe this aircraft would have been part of the B-17 movement to Hawaii in December if it had survived.

[Steve Birdsall]

The problem with most of these photos is the lack of a date. The well-known photo below and the much later one above tend to make me think that 41-2403 never wore the HAD scheme. It left the Boeing factory 20 October 1941 but I don't know exactly when it arrived in Hawaii.



The presentation of the radio call number is the way I think 41-2408 would have looked, and I'd assumed it was applied at the Boeing factory or at least to Army specifications, but I don't really know for sure. Scott's comments about 40-2047 make me a bit more confident, but it would really help to find photos of a few more of these aircraft.

[Steve Birdsall]

A couple of authoritative sources have convinced me that I’m on the wrong track here, and that the Embree photo was not censored.

It’s unfortunate that nobody seems to know exactly when the radio call numbers began to be applied to B-17Es leaving the Boeing factory, meaning there’s no easy answers.

I still wonder why, even if 12408 was not on the tail, this aircraft displayed no identification at all. Its squadron-mate, 40-2049, had “49” painted on the tail when it landed at Bellows Field, so why would 41-2408 not have at least a similar two-digit number? The plane had been with the 7th Bomb Group since the end of October 1941.

Also, we know that these B-17s carried no ammunition, but they were armed. Why would the tail guns not be in their normal position for the flight from the mainland?

[Chris Brame]

Walter Lord's Day of Infamy mentions that the guns were "in cosmoline" - were they still crated up inside the planes? I notice the bottom turret has its guns installed, however.
Scott, this is the first I've heard of a tail number on 40-2047 - are there any photos showing it?

[varsity07840]

Walter Lord's Day of Infamy mentions that the guns were "in cosmoline" - were they still crated up inside the planes? I notice the bottom turret has its guns installed, however.
Scott, this is the first I've heard of a tail number on 40-2047 - are there any photos showing it?

I think the removal and stowage of the tail guns was due to a CG issue caused by extra gear loaded on the aircraft.

Getting back to the tail number isssue, it seems that prior to the change to serial number based radio call sign numbers, there was little standardization on B-17C and D aircraft that found their way to the Pacific. Some used the standard plane in group designators and some didn't The 19th BG Cs and Ds including the four C models of the 38th RS that arrived at Hickam on Dec 7 normally used a two digit plane number based on the last two digits of the serial number and dispensed with the 19B group designator. Hence 49 for C model 40-2049. One exception to that rule was the 19th's B-17C 40-2072 which used the
number 2072 to differentiate it from the 19th's B-17D 40-3072 which carried the number 72. ON THE OTHER HAND, the 19th's aircraft of the 14th BS which was formed from aircraft of the 5th and 11th BGs at Hickam had the standard plane in group designator as in 61/11B which was the aircraft Colin Kelly flew to the Philippines as part of the 14BS. HOWEVER, on
the Hickam aircraft the two digit plane number DID NOT correspond to the last two digits of the serial number. Kelly's B-17D had serial number 40-3095. 40-3097, which became the Swoose carried the designator 22/11B while in natural metal.
Regarding the early B-17Es, a close look at the tail numbers on different aircraft shows that different stencils were used
apparently depending on where the numbers were applied. The numbers 2 and 3 especially stand out. I still tend to believe that those very early B-17Es left the US without tail numbers of any kind and had them painted on when time and conditions allowed. NOW, having said that, by the time the 7th BG's B-17Es began arriving in Java, their aircraft carried the new radio call sign numbers. Photos of these aircraft en route, carrying the numbers makes that clear. Whether they were painted at the factory or at a modification depot in the US prior to shipping out is anybody's guess.

Regards to all,

Duane

[aerovin2]

A couple of authoritative sources have convinced me that I’m on the wrong track here, and that the Embree photo was not censored.

It’s unfortunate that nobody seems to know exactly when the radio call numbers began to be applied to B-17Es leaving the Boeing factory, meaning there’s no easy answers.

I still wonder why, even if 12408 was not on the tail, this aircraft displayed no identification at all. Its squadron-mate, 40-2049, had “49” painted on the tail when it landed at Bellows Field, so why would 41-2408 not have at least a similar two-digit number? The plane had been with the 7th Bomb Group since the end of October 1941.

Also, we know that these B-17s carried no ammunition, but they were armed. Why would the tail guns not be in their normal position for the flight from the mainland?

The standard to apply the abbreviated serial numbers to the vertical stabilizer was established on October 29, 1941, but was not apparently implemented until later, probably in a gradual process. As Steve probably found, examples of to-be-delivered B-17Es at the factory showed the numbers applied at the factory can definitely be seen in February 1942 (Bowers Fortress in the Sky) but think the Bowers book (page 90 and Alwyn Lloyd's Detail and Scale (page 30) of s/n 41-2443 would suggest that the serials were applied at the factory as early as late November 1941, when that airplane was delivered.

[Steve Birdsall]

Regarding the early B-17Es, a close look at the tail numbers on different aircraft shows that different stencils were used
apparently depending on where the numbers were applied. The numbers 2 and 3 especially stand out. I still tend to believe that those very early B-17Es left the US without tail numbers of any kind and had them painted on when time and conditions allowed.

This does get messy. Pete Bowers gives the date for factory-applied tail radio call numbers as "mid January" 1942. But we know (from the well-known photos taken over Puget Sound that Scott refers to) that 41-2443 certainly displayed its radio call number, and 41-2443 was delivered on 3 December 1941.

I had thought that those smaller radio call numbers on some of these B-17Es (like 41-2408, 41-2417) and aberrations (like 41-2416) could be the result of the originals being over-painted when the "HAD Scheme" was applied, but that's looking less and less likely.

[varsity07840]

Regarding the early B-17Es, a close look at the tail numbers on different aircraft shows that different stencils were used
apparently depending on where the numbers were applied. The numbers 2 and 3 especially stand out. I still tend to believe that those very early B-17Es left the US without tail numbers of any kind and had them painted on when time and conditions allowed.

This does get messy. Pete Bowers gives the date for factory-applied tail radio call numbers as "mid January" 1942. But we know (from the well-known photos taken over Puget Sound that Scott refers to) that 41-2443 certainly displayed its radio call number, and 41-2443 was delivered on 3 December 1941.

I had thought that those smaller radio call numbers on some of these B-17Es (like 41-2408, 41-2417) and aberrations (like 41-2416) could be the result of the originals being over-painted when the "HAD Scheme" was applied, but that's looking less and less likely.

I think the one common link for all the B-17Es that received The HAD scheme is that the area on the tail that had or
eventually received the radio call number was left in the original OD color.

Duane

[Steve Birdsall]

Another example of the variations in the way B-17E radio call numbers were applied in Hawaii . . . "412417" is of course 41-2417.



This photo was taken in northern Australia in July 1942. The plane was repaired and flown out in September.

[Steve Birdsall]

From my collection...
Unidentified B-17E on blocks. Would love to know what bird this is.

Looks like this was one of the 11th Bomb Group's radar-equipped aircraft . . . I believe there were three of these in each squadron.

Any chance of getting a (much) better image?