Scratch Build of B-17G 43-38083 "Happy Valley Express"

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Chuck Giese
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Re: Scratch Build of B-17G 43-38083 "Happy Valley Express"

Post by Chuck Giese »

FoCoB17G wrote:
terveurn wrote:Building a one-off B-17 is not very cost effective and would take considerably longer to build then a production line of aircraft.
It's important to remember that building a one-off will cost at a minimum (Really scraping the bottom of the barrel, many in-house parts, and no money into hangar space or labor) $2 million. For a series of ten, maybe expect $15 million. Sure, you save $5 million, but it still costs $13 million more than the one-off. If we had people buying in (basically purchasing aircraft up-front) it's doable, and much cheaper per unit, but that's a much bigger sum.

In my CAD program, Solidworks, there is a "Costing" feature for parts. I like messing around with it, just to see what it estimates as the cost for certain parts (I don't use any outputs as an actual estimate- It's more just for fun). Let's say we need to cast and then machine a pulley block. For one unit, it costs $20 per unit. For 1000 it costs $2. Much cheaper, but there's no way I can afford to pay the $2000 even though it's a great deal. And then what am I going to do with the other 1,999? In the case of a full plane, what am I going to do with an extra 9?

I think that ultimately, if someone with a thick wallet comes along and is able to do it, it will be great for them because they pay much less per unit. But for you and me its impractical (Unless you are a multimillionaire...). For now, the only way to bring costs down for new construction is to work with the the current restorations, and get in on parts runs.

As it stands now, I don't have any hangar space, or any large sum of cash. This aircraft will have to be built piece by piece, slowly. To build just a single aircraft hangar costs more than $300,000 in this area, to build one large enough for 3 or more is getting into the millions. All is doable with cash, which I just don't have...
Realistically, $4-$5 Million is a better estimate, assuming that you want to fly the airplane when done. As an example, I'm currently getting quotes on the ~700 close tolerance bolts necessary for the bomb bay structures - Bulkheads 4 & 5, catwalk truss and both compression struts - and I'm estimating a cost of $18,000 per bomb bay. You can find cheaper bolts, but they don't come with certs.

As a recovering engineer, I like the idea of using solidworks. Currently I'm using a CAD program, and have done the bomb bay structures and wing attach terminal plates. Now I'm designing the wing attach point jig to locate bulkheads 4 & 5. I'd be willing to collaborate with you on this, let's communicate off-line.
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Re: Scratch Build of B-17G 43-38083 "Happy Valley Express"

Post by FoCoB17G »

Chuck Giese wrote:
Realistically, $4-$5 Million is a better estimate, assuming that you want to fly the airplane when done. As an example, I'm currently getting quotes on the ~700 close tolerance bolts necessary for the bomb bay structures - Bulkheads 4 & 5, catwalk truss and both compression struts - and I'm estimating a cost of $18,000 per bomb bay. You can find cheaper bolts, but they don't come with certs.
Good to know. I wouldn't have expected something as "simple" as bolts to be so expensive. There are a lot of things ahead that I haven't anticipated... One of the reasons this forum is so great. You all have hundred of years of combined experience, probably on the B-17 alone not to mention other aircraft. I am coming in with little experience, hoping to gain a lot along the way.
As a recovering engineer, I like the idea of using solidworks. Currently I'm using a CAD program, and have done the bomb bay structures and wing attach terminal plates. Now I'm designing the wing attach point jig to locate bulkheads 4 & 5. I'd be willing to collaborate with you on this, let's communicate off-line.
Just send me a message with when to call, and a preferred number. E-mail or a message here will work fine. You (and anyone else) can also always contact me using the number posted on my website [ (970)-658-6719 ]. It's my cell, but I usually don't pick up right away to new callers unless I am expecting a call.
-Eli Josephs
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Re: Scratch Build of B-17G 43-38083 "Happy Valley Express"

Post by FoCoB17G »

EDIT: I now have a large number, perhaps all, of the BAC extrusions thanks to Chuck.

I am in need of BAC 1500, and BAC 1517 if anyone has a copy and could send a scan, that would be very helpful!

If it has multiple sheets, I need BAC1500-1543 adn BAC1517-506 and -504 in specific. (I would prefer a full copy, but I'll take whatever I can get- Not going to be picky if someone offers to help!)

Thank you.
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Re: Scratch Build of B-17G 43-38083 "Happy Valley Express"

Post by FoCoB17G »

Currently going through the forward stiffeners and fixing the models so that extrusions are correct, and building to the proper serial. It's quick work, but there's a lot of it.

The picture is of station 1A, with construction lines for part 12-831-6 shown.

Image
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Re: Scratch Build of B-17G 43-38083 "Happy Valley Express"

Post by FoCoB17G »

Does anyone know where to find the extrusion type of Longeron/stringer "L" or any other styingers/longerons? The closest I have come is 55-7012, which is for the skin of the aircraft. I have not seen any direct references to extrusion types, lengths, etc, but it's come time to start thinking about these.
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Chuck Giese
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Re: Scratch Build of B-17G 43-38083 "Happy Valley Express"

Post by Chuck Giese »

I believe you are looking for 55-7013 (sta 1-6), and 55-7014 (sta 6-11)
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Re: Scratch Build of B-17G 43-38083 "Happy Valley Express"

Post by FoCoB17G »

Thanks Chuck. I think those are what I was looking for indeed.

EDIT: That is the right drawing! Thanks!
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Re: Scratch Build of B-17G 43-38083 "Happy Valley Express"

Post by FoCoB17G »

I added the first longeron section 55-7013-695 into the main assembly today. I extended it a little bit up to bulkhead 3 just to get a quick idea of how the shape is developing. It looks just about right.

Image
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Re: Scratch Build of B-17G 43-38083 "Happy Valley Express"

Post by FoCoB17G »

I just found information suggesting that there is a panel for this exact aircraft still in existence, from from the aerovintage site itself! http://www.aerovintage.com/b17news12.htm

Anyone have more information on the digs, or if I could find what was identified as coming from 43-38083? The ultimate prize would be to actually have a part of the original ship- Here I was thinking everything was melted!
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Re: Scratch Build of B-17G 43-38083 "Happy Valley Express"

Post by FoCoB17G »

EDIT: I just realized that they are in fact two separate stiffeners, a base and then an A variant.

I'm hoping for some clarification on drawing 12-837. It contains a set of layouts for the various stiffeners between blk 4 and 5, with each one shown about like this:

Image

SO, what am I looking at? Top and bottom? Two variants?
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Re: Scratch Build of B-17G 43-38083 "Happy Valley Express"

Post by FoCoB17G »

I just discovered a very helpful feature of solidworks, where you can model a "mold" to form a piece of sheet metal. Part 14-3712-18 has a complex form, with multiple flanges and a raised circular section. It works very well, and once I do it a few more times it should be a quick way to make complex geometry.

Image

Image
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Re: Scratch Build of B-17G 43-38083 "Happy Valley Express"

Post by FoCoB17G »

Just got the first three stringers into the main assembly.

Image
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Re: Scratch Build of B-17G 43-38083 "Happy Valley Express"

Post by FoCoB17G »

HELP!

I can't figure out what's wrong here... Or why it's doing what it's doing.

I'm trying to generate stringer N, on the top RH side of the nose section. The way I make stringers is to sweep a contour (in this case BAC1504-650) along a path (a spline line) which follows the outer boundaries of the various circumferential stiffeners. Up until M and N, there were no problems. At M and higher, the stiffeners have variable radii, but this should not matter, because each consecutive stiffener is still increasing.

Here is a picture of the current contour path:

Image

If you can't see the whole image, use this link, it shows a smaller version:

http://imgur.com/a/vYSwd

Notice how it bows in and then bows out again... What?? Take a look at the numbers. They aren't based off of the centerline so the actual value is unimportant- What IS important, though, is that they are increasing. From bulkhead 2, (27.90) to 2A, it increases by 1.4", from 2a to 2b is 1.83", 2b to 2c is 1.21".

Do I need to use multiple splines, breaking at 2A? I'm not sure why the spline "bows" in and out, because all values are increasing.

Here's how it looks when following that path (you can even see deviation in stringer M):

Image

http://imgur.com/a/qrSDE
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Re: Scratch Build of B-17G 43-38083 "Happy Valley Express"

Post by cvairwerks »

Looks to me from my limited view, that there is a placement error on the second bulkhead from the left. That or there is an artifact that is too small to see at that zoom level that was captured as the snap point when you did the curve layout. May need to roll to an overhead view and zoom in and out to look at it too.
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Re: Scratch Build of B-17G 43-38083 "Happy Valley Express"

Post by FoCoB17G »

cvairwerks wrote:Looks to me from my limited view, that there is a placement error on the second bulkhead from the left. That or there is an artifact that is too small to see at that zoom level that was captured as the snap point when you did the curve layout. May need to roll to an overhead view and zoom in and out to look at it too.
Thanks for the response! I was sure that I must have placed one of the circumferentials wrong, but here is a derived drawing with the layout dimensioned:


Use this link if you can't see the pic well enough: http://imgur.com/a/0WtPl
Image

I'm fixing the 9.95 to make it 10, but I doubt that .05" will fix the contour.

The centerlines of the circumferentials and bulkheads all line up with the airplane centerline, both vertically and horizontally.

As far as a wrong snap point, I rechecked and they are all where they should be. A little more info here: In the actual aircraft, the stringers are joggled "through" the circumferentials behind bulkhead 2, but I'm not doing this in the model just to save time. Making a double joggle in the contour path for every stiffener would take a LONG time, so instead the stringers just follow the outside edge of the stiffener.


EDIT: Hopefully these will help you get a better idea of the geometry I'm dealing with.

Image
Image
Image
-Eli Josephs
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