Early B-17Fs

[varsity07840]

Can anyone explain why so many early B-17Fs arrived in theater, mainly in North Africa without nose gun installations? I assume that it was by that time understood that the original .30 cal. guns were useless. I can understand that perhaps the intent was to do the installations at theater maintenance depots prior to going operational, but it's obvious that a lot of those a/c flew missions with enlarged cheek gun windows, done at modification centers in the states, but no nose guns. Pacific F models, few as they were all seem to have arrived with modified .50 cal. cheek guns and .30 cal nose gun mounts that were never modified for .50 cals. as was the case with B-17Es. Puzzlement.

[terveurn]

The extra firepower in the nose was not considered necessary at the time -- these modifications only started to appear as missions were flown and the tactics the Luftwaffe (and italian AF) became clear.

When the B-17 was first envisioned, it was considered fast enough to outrun any fighter, so a lot of the defense was to the side and rear.

[suzyQ194]

The Bomber design of the thirties and the doctrine was for the bomber to get to the target fast and out run the slow fighters of the day. Look at the HE-111 some had machine gun remotely fired in the tail cone, and possibly other aircraft designs. Fighter designs in the 30's were slow, that all changed in 1936 with the Spanish Civil War and the Sino-Japanese conflict. As Technology improved in aviation fighters got faster and the rest is history.

[suzyQ194]

This is a good book to read to understand the philosophy and doctrine in the 1930's.
BIRTH OF A LEGEND: The Bomber Mafia and the Y1B-17 Kindle Edition
by CAPT Arthur H. Wagner USCG (Ret) (Author), LtCol Leon E. (Bill) Braxton USAF (Ret) (Author)

Remember the pursuit mafia vs. the bomber mafia.

[varsity07840]

The extra firepower in the nose was not considered necessary at the time -- these modifications only started to appear as missions were flown and the tactics the Luftwaffe (and italian AF) became clear.

When the B-17 was first envisioned, it was considered fast enough to outrun any fighter, so a lot of the defense was to the side and rear.

My point is that the first production F models had the same nose armament as the E. One .30 cal. that could be fired from
various nose and cheek sockets. Most of these were depot modified with enlarged cheek windows with .50 cal. guns. However, a number of F models seem to have arrived in theater and flew missions with the .50 cal cheek guns but no
mounts for any guns in the plexiglass nose. That seems odd considering the fact that the Air Force already knew that the
B-17 was vulnerable to head on attacks.

[terveurn]

One of the problems with .5 Cal in the nose, is that this would have required significant reworking of the nose and structure.

The Plexiglas could not support the weight of this weapon, even with a simple counter balance arrangement - when they added the twin .50's in the nose, these aircraft could not use the bomb site.

The Air Force also knew that the .30 cal was a useless weapon and generally was not very effective against modern aircraft.

[varsity07840]

One of the problems with .5 Cal in the nose, is that this would have required significant reworking of the nose and structure.

The Plexiglas could not support the weight of this weapon, even with a simple counter balance arrangement - when they added the twin .50's in the nose, these aircraft could not use the bomb site.

The Air Force also knew that the .30 cal was a useless weapon and generally was not very effective against modern aircraft.

In the ETO they did that very thing. They replaced the two upper.30 cal sockets with .50s with support bracing. The Memphis Bell is a perfect example. The 8th AF standardized on a single .50 centered in the nose with the exception of toggle ships that had twin guns. The nose piece used was the same socket less one as seen in North Africa. Perhaps the decision was made to wait until the a/c went into scheduled maintenance before installing the nose gun.

[384thBG]

The time period you're referring to isn't completely clear. We know that parts of the 97th And 301st BG B-17s almost immediately deployed from the ETO to North Africa in November 1942. So the depot and group level 50 cal. nose gun modification you see on photos of Memphis Belle and other B-17Fs in the Spring of 1943 may not have been done before they deployed. War theaters such as the Southwest Pacific, Burma and North Africa suffered with non-existent materials, spares and replacements, so I'm not really surprised that if they didn't have it when they went to North Africa, they probably didn't have it at all unless it was harvested from a crashed or shot up airframe. They simply may not have the spares or materials to do the mods in North Arica.