1951 news story: B-17s at Bunker Hill "school"

[Chris Brame]

I got a newspapers.com trial to look up more info on the Paducah B-17; didn't turn up anything new yet (1947 and '48 aren't available), but I did find this story. Anyone know how many B-17s the "school" (or front for a parts dealer ) had, and have any photos of the outfit turned up?

[aerovin2]

Interesting because the Navy base was inactive from 1946 to 1954 and then reactivated as Bunker Hill AFB, so I presume all these airplanes were stored at or went through Bunker Hill somewhere between 1946 and 1951. So just how much was a surplus B-17 worth in 1946? There were so many surplus airplanes available...mostly for scrap value at, at most, maybe $500. The gas and other stuff culled out (usable equipment, instruments, metal from engines and props) were probably worth more than the aluminum in the airframes. Lots of funny deals in the period too, and I guess this was one of them.

[jmkendall]

Newspaper hype.

I went through the congressional file on this investigation and there was some real shady stuff going on.

First the C.C, Duke Harrah mentioned in the article was the brother of Bill Harrah the Casino owner. Duke Harrah was a well known parts dealer post war.

The whole file makes interesting reading and lays out a lot of the post war purchasing requirements and discounts. With examples of documents used in the process.

There was a whole division that ran the Education donation section of the WAA. The head of which was accussed of being in "cahoots" with a few parts dealers. I've always wondered about this in light of the ease with which a dealer was able t track down some of these aircraft around 1950. There just had to be a master list. I did find where most of the records for aircraft sales were destroyed in the 80s. However; the donation records might actually still exist.

Something that came up was that a Cleveland Air Race pilot who was test pilot ( I have his name in notes not with me) made a fair amount of money ferrying these aircraft. He at one time had three P-38's .

From the records it appears that most of the equipment they had were actually engines and machine tools. They were buying the engines and then having them reconditioned and sold onward. Including one German Engine they got when the "school" moved to Freeman Field.

Now for the verified airframes:

C-46 42-97(6)708. There is confusion as to the first "7" whether it was a 7 or an 6
PT-26 ( bought "brand new in crate") Still looking for the serial number but there is a sales document without one.
P-43 "4367 BR FJ 668"
SNV-1 That looks like it really was sold for scrap after they pulled the engine.
SNJ-4 10085
SNJ-4 unknown but admited to having been there.
SNJ-4 ditto

There are records of two other C-46 aircraft being purchased...but all parties seem to agree that the other two were not delived because B-24s became available "they had two more engines". The indications were that they perhaps recieved a couple of B-24s.

Of interest is that the same ferry pilot ferried a "Jet" to Perdue University in 1946/7.

Thier own records show that there were more aircraft than they admitted to in the Congressional investigation. Though no types were given.

From the payments made it "appears" that hey may have recieved two or three B-24s, as well as at least two other trainer type aircraft.

There is no basis anywhere that they ever had a B-17 or P-51.

If anyone wants more specific answers I can look them up.

Joe

[jmkendall]

Something else that was interesting to me.

IF you were an education institution you could purchase a "salable" aircraft with a 40 percent discount. So instead of buying that B-17 for 13 thousand and change you could get it for around $7200. If you're students were primarily G.I.s using the G.I. Bill you could get a 95 percent discount. These were aircraft you could sell instead of scrapping.

The interviewees were very carefull to maintain that they price they paid was the discount price, which made it legal to sale. There was also a 3 year period after which it became real grey as to the legal status of the donated items.

It also seems that people and even state governments were were buying surplus material and then selling them back directly to the US Government for profit.

Like I said, very interesting reading.

[Chris Brame]

P-43 "4367 BR FJ 668"

Hmm. Wonder if this is 41-6668, and also if it's the one from Indiana that Earl Reinert almost saved around 1961? Scrappers beat him to it by a few days - he saved the landing gear and engine mount/dishpan.

[terveurn]

The best post war story I heard was the Air Force needed a certain type of propeller for the B-29 - they were looking for fully reversible with no cuffs.

It seems the only available props came from the B-32's so the Air Force went to the scrap dealers and purchased back all the available props at 5,000 each. What made this interesting is each B-32 was sold to the scrap dealers for $ 1,200 each.

Big money in the scrapped engines and accessories as well - the B-24 engines were in big demand.

[jmkendall]

I decided to dig deeper and although a source reports B-17s, B-25s, C-47s as well as B-24s at Bunker Hill, the record from the investigation reveals nothing but B-24s.

I now know they had three and possibly 4 B-24's.

These were described as trainers for the B-29(sic) and B-32 bombers....seats for 12 people with 3 complete sets of instruments".

I believe it should be B-24 and B-32, instead of B-29.

In testamony they say that these were "three of the only four built"...and picked up from Chanute AAF.

Putting it all together, I believe them to be the At-22s that were Flight Engineer Trainers. That were later re-designated TB-24, in 1944.

The serials of the AT-22s were:

42-107266 ( which was probably converted to an RY-2)
43-30549
43-30561
43-30574
43-30584

They were still noted there in 1951 "in stripped condition". Minus instruments and engines. When asked who would want them, the owner said that any college would be proud to own them. The Government did take back some of the residual property of the School. So far; I have been unable to find what they did with it. I'll keep looking

[Second Air Force]

The AT-22s were definitely used to train B-29 flight engineers. I have Base History documents from several of the Second Air Force B-29 stations that mention having the Liberators assigned to the Base Units on a temporary rotating basis. I am much less familiar with the B-32 training program since it was all pretty much self-contained at Fort Worth, but it wouldn't be hard to visualize using AT-22s for the B-32 FE training program also--though Consolidated built 40 TB-32s at the early part of production that may have been sufficient.

Also, the AT-22s were actually converted C-87s rather than B-24s, and I believe the number of five airplanes to be correct.

[Chris Brame]

Thanks for sharing all the info; I never knew about any of this before - hope some pictures turn up sometime!

[jmkendall]

There are pics of the P-43 in Vol. 22, no 6 of Warbirds International.

[terveurn]

The AT-22s were definitely used to train B-29 flight engineers. I have Base History documents from several of the Second Air Force B-29 stations that mention having the Liberators assigned to the Base Units on a temporary rotating basis. I am much less familiar with the B-32 training program since it was all pretty much self-contained at Fort Worth, but it wouldn't be hard to visualize using AT-22s for the B-32 FE training program also--though Consolidated built 40 TB-32s at the early part of production that may have been sufficient.

Also, the AT-22s were actually converted C-87s rather than B-24s, and I believe the number of five airplanes to be correct.

Well, yes and no

there was a lot of B-24 converted to CFC trainers as well - there was a lot of TB-24's with this configuration

Gunnery trainer.JPG

RB-24L.JPG