Aero Vintage Books

aerovin2 wrote:Dan K........

Go for it. As far as I'm concerned you have the passion for this and have pushed it to this point....I don't think anyone will have a problem with you working it into something that can be published. I'll add a bit about the material to my next B-17 update but that goes to a very limited audience. I'd like to assemble a summary of what we now know and add it to my B-17 News page.

I'll also update my Air Force movie page.

By the way, don't forget that Bill Stanczak started the ball rolling on this whole ID thing as he determined it was a B-17B and not a B-17C that was used as the Mary Ann, at least that's what I saw from my corner of the internet.

I don't know when Bill figured out it was a B-17B, but I know that I figured it out about three years ago and posted it on armyairforces.com on July 4, 2006.

Here is the link:
http://forum.armyairforces.com/B17-quot ... 96675.aspx

See Page 6, Message three on the link at armyairforces.com

C-47B

C-47B wrote:

aerovin2 wrote:Dan K........

Go for it. As far as I'm concerned you have the passion for this and have pushed it to this point....I don't think anyone will have a problem with you working it into something that can be published. I'll add a bit about the material to my next B-17 update but that goes to a very limited audience. I'd like to assemble a summary of what we now know and add it to my B-17 News page.

I'll also update my Air Force movie page.

By the way, don't forget that Bill Stanczak started the ball rolling on this whole ID thing as he determined it was a B-17B and not a B-17C that was used as the Mary Ann, at least that's what I saw from my corner of the internet.

I don't know when Bill figured out it was a B-17B, but I know that I figured it out about three years ago and posted it on armyairforces.com on July 4, 2006.

Here is the link:
http://forum.armyairforces.com/B17-quot ... 96675.aspx

See Page 6, Message three on the link at armyairforces.com

C-47B

Not that anyone wanted to believe you. Jeez, a stubborn bunch

I stand corrected. It appears the Bill referred to the referred post when he initially posted this information in December 2006, a full five months after the information was posted elsewhere.

THANK YOU!!!

By the way, a B-17B actually didsee combat!

38-215 was originally assigned to Ladd Field, Alaska for cold weather testing 1941-1942; 8215 participated in bomb strikes against the Japanese fleet during the Dutch Harbor operation, was in an air battle over Unmak Pass on June 4, 1942, and, sadly, crashed on the way back to Kiska from a weather reconnaissance operation on July 18, 1942.

So we CAN say that at least ONE B-17B SAW COMBAT!!!

How 'bout that?

Regards,
Dan K.

DryMartini wrote:

Actually, the story is this:

Tom Wilson called me up one evening, and
said that someone on another message board said that
"Mary Ann" was a B-17B, and that no one believed him.

He did not mention the board, but I decided to look at
some pictures, and watch my old "Air Force" VHS tape,
and confirmed that she was indeed a B-17B. I posted my
findings on this, the B-17 oracle-of-information board.
(That has to count for something)

So, I wasn't the first, but I did independently confirm the finding.

And now you have the whole story... .

Thanks Bill Stanczak.

Yes, when I first floated the idea that Mary Ann was a B-17B back in July 2006 it was frustrating that people did not want to look and see. Even more frustrating about the whole two year exchange on armyairforces.com was that people would chime in on the thread without reading what had been hashed out before. Some hadn't even watched the movie or hadn't seen it for some time. If I remember correctly, there were about three different threads on armyairforces.com concerning this topic.

When we had eliminated about 35 of the 38 B-17C airplanes I thought that we were getting close. Things were not checking out and I was getting the idea that we were barking up the wrong tree rather than getting closer. When I re-watched the movie again (I must have watched the movie about 20 times that summer) it was evident that the airplane had the commander's dome off set to the right. This was noticable at four points in the first hour but was espcecially noticable when the airplane was at Wake Island (00:57:43 and at 00:59:00). Then I was a believer. Did not have a lot of support for the idea right off, then I posted a point by point identification of the airplane as a B-17B on Sept 4, 2006. After that, I did not care if people did not want to believe me. I knew what I was seeing.

Yes, this is the "B-17 oracle-of-information board".

Sincerely,

C-47B

Anthony J. Mireles

Author
FATAL ARMY AIR FORCES AVIATION ACCIDENTS
IN THE UNITED STATES, 1941-1945

Just added some info about this thread to my News page at http://www.aerovintage.com/b17news.htm.

Wow!! Great work, and so sorry no one believed you! Most folks didn't believe ME, either!

Dan K.

PS - Thanks for giving your name so I can credit you!

Funny, isn't it?
Seems like a lot of us got the idea around the same time in 2006!

But I will always recall, going all the way back to that 2-part Wings/Airpower article in 1974, as an advert for Fortress in the Sky, which I then bought -( wish I had it now, as one page has a photo of a B-17D making a belly landing at Hendricks, front view from quite a distance of the plane letting down, flaps down) - that the main ID between one of those "MODERNIZED" B-17Bs and the B-17C was that offset Mission Commander's bubble! I'm kinda wondering just how far back I came up with Mary Ann's correct breed....

Oh well, there's enough credit for ALL who participated in this. Each and every one was critical, valuable, and a keystone in his own way.

I've almost got the article done. I'm checking with Warner Bros. about using their photos in the article and we'll see what gives.
sans permission, I'll only publish or print public domain photos.

No sweat.

Dan K. aka Dennis L. Katz

Now, if I can just have C-47B's real name to give HIM credit.....


Dan Katz
(Dennis L. Katz
AAHS #18301, 1990-2000
IPMS-USA #2018, 1967-74, 1990-91
SAFCH #1512, 1990-2000)

Sincerely,

Anthony J. Mireles

Author
FATAL ARMY AIR FORCES AVIATION ACCIDENTS
IN THE UNITED STATES, 1941-1945

Is this not his real name?

DryMartini wrote:

Sincerely,

Anthony J. Mireles

Author
FATAL ARMY AIR FORCES AVIATION ACCIDENTS
IN THE UNITED STATES, 1941-1945

Is this not his real name?

That is my real name, although I have been called other things.

C-47B

According to the Aircraft History Card, B-17B # 38-584 was assigned to Hobbs in July 30, 1943 and was placed on Class 26 on October 29, 1943.

I checked the AAF aircraft accident index and looked up several B-17 accidents that occurred at Hobbs AAB and at other bases in New Mexico during October 1943, including a multi B-17 taxi accident at Hobbs AAB on October 12, 1943. None of these accidents involved B-17B # 38-584.

Apparently, B-17B # 38-584 was not involved in an accident in October 1943 before it was placed on Class 26.

Will look at all dates from July 30, 1943 to the time the airplane was placed on Class 26 for evidence of an accident or ground mishap. The airplane was written off in December 1943.

C-47B

pokryshkin wrote:THANK YOU!!!

By the way, a B-17B actually didsee combat!

38-215 was originally assigned to Ladd Field, Alaska for cold weather testing 1941-1942; 8215 participated in bomb strikes against the Japanese fleet during the Dutch Harbor operation, was in an air battle over Unmak Pass on June 4, 1942, and, sadly, crashed on the way back to Kiska from a weather reconnaissance operation on July 18, 1942.

So we CAN say that at least ONE B-17B SAW COMBAT!!!

How 'bout that?

Regards,
Dan K.

I'd read some stuff on this bird in a couple of different books on the Aleutian airwar, and Alaska.

And there is a nice write up by the pilot of 38-215 called the Marks Report here:

http://www.geocities.com/tempelhof.geo/marksreport.html

Wow!!

My humble, profuse, and abject apologies, gentlement!!

I'm going to take a look at that report.

Thank you for the data!

Regards,
Dan Katz
([Dennis L. Katz - though anyone in the hobby {and all my family members, since about 1960}know me as Dan)
AAHS #18301, 1990-2000.
IPMS-USA #2018, 1967-74/1990-91
SAFCH #1512, 1990-2000)
PS -Just took a look at that report. WOW!!! This confirms everything I've ever read about the war up there - that both we AND the Japanese had to fight the weather even more than each other!!
I HAVE a photo of this aircraft in the form in which she saw action!
I just can't seem to attach it to this post! The photo I have is on the ground, seen from the right side, almost even with the rear entry door. The right wing masks the cockpit. The waists are flush, but top and bottom positions are the blisters. The rear fuselage to just aft of the waists is orange, with prewar tail stripes, and a black "1" on the fin; the cowlings may also be orange. A prewar star-circle-center dot is seen under the right wing, and the rest of the aircraft is natural metal, near as I can tell. The wingtips outboard of the ailerons MAY be another color, it's hard to tell as this area is in shade.
Hope this helps.

-Dan K.