B-17E 41-2410; what's this scheme?

[Chris Brame]

Mitchel Field, 1-27-43. Found this one here:
https://nyheritage.contentdm.oclc.org/d ... 173/rec/64


Zooming in:

Still has the remote turret at this late date. So, winter camo or ?
(B-18B is either 37-562 or 582.)

[TAdan]

Atlantic camo scheme.

[robstitt]

For interest, the censored items are ASV Mk II antenna: homing receive antenna under the wings and the tripod support for the sideways-looking, wire-based antenna above the fuselage - the wires for this are just visible, as is the homing transmit antenna towards the bottom of the nose cone.

The homing system worked but this sideways-looking search configuration was not effective.

Robert Stitt

[aerovin2]

Interesting to me because I thought that scheme was USN only. I can only find examples of USN aircraft wearing it. When I first saw the photo I thought it was a British-earmarked-but-retained B-17E but no serials below 41-2513 were so earmarked. (Source: “Boeing B-17 Fortress in RAF Coastal Command Service”)

Interesting photo.

[terveurn]

and nobody has mentioned the Gorilla in the room - the RCAF Liberator Gr III

[TAdan]

On Second thought, could that be OD over the light grey/white? I seem to recall seeing an ASW B-18 in OD over light grey/white.

I presumed the B-24 was in the typical RAF Coastal Command scheme.

[Second Air Force]

The Liberator was the first thing I fastened my eyes on! I love coming here and seeing these new nuggets of history!!!

That photo certainly does a nice job of showing the belly gunner's side windows, doesn't it?

[robstitt]

From colour images I have seen I would venture that the scheme is USN Dark Gull Grey over Insignia White.

Robert

[aerovin2]

So the question then becomes why an AAF B-17 was painted in a USN scheme? Or was it applied to all ASW aircraft, not just USN. Bears a bit of research. Like I noted earlier, I've only seen the scheme on USN aircraft used as such. Were AAF B-24s similarly employed?

[Second Air Force]

Scott,

I've got several photos in my files of ASW B-24s in AAF service, though it'd take me a long time to find them. Here is one aircraft that was used at McCook AAB as a trainer in 1943. Without digging deep into my notes, this airplane was part of an AAF ASW squadron that gave up the submarine patrol duties to the Navy and some aircraft and the crews were "absorbed" into other AAF duties.

Sub Depot.jpg

[aerovin2]

So, the aircraft on the right is an AAF B-24 and not a USN PB4Y-1? If so, that answers the question. Thanks for posting.

[varsity07840]

7A8E54AF-A3EC-44FA-B24D-901440B84021.jpeg

And then there's this one. Also note the enlarged cheek gun window. The earliest B-17E I've seen with that modification. No guns in the Sperry lower turret.

[robstitt]

The RAF found its Coastal Command Fortresses, armed with only a single .3 or later .5 machine gun in the nose, proved to be highly vulnerable to return fire from surfaced U-boats after they were ordered by Adm Donitz to stay on the surface to fight it out (although the Fortress crew could use the upper turret until the gunner became un-sighted closer in and FK185 was experimentally modified with a nose-mounted 40mm Vickers gun).

This topic is outside my usual Fortress research area but one thought that occurs to me is that, since the USAAF had ready-access to nose modifications and was aware of the RAF's experience with the Fortress during ASW operations, these cheek windows and guns may have been installed on these ASW B-17Es to provide additional suppressive frontal firepower. Just a theory at this point.

Robert

[Second Air Force]

So, the aircraft on the right is an AAF B-24 and not a USN PB4Y-1? If so, that answers the question. Thanks for posting.

Yes, the B-24 on the lower part of the image is a standard B-24D. You've most likely seen photos of the Fort Worth Consolidated assembly line with a mixture of O.D./neutral grey airplanes mixed with others in this scheme. My recollection is that the airplane at McCook was part of an ASW squadron reassigned to bombardment training.

[terveurn]

So, the aircraft on the right is an AAF B-24 and not a USN PB4Y-1? If so, that answers the question. Thanks for posting.

Nope she is an RCAF Liberator GR I - one of the first five sent to Canada.

I do not believe any USAAF B-24 has the Radar in the nose - the USAAF preferred the ball turret position.