Detective work

[hang the expense]

Ok Gang, Lets figure out where the missing parts got of to from the bar airplane.Here are my ideas, The nose has been missing for sometime and I figured it went to the shoo shoo baby rebuild along with the inboard wing panels.Maybe the top turret as well. I know the airforce dove on Brooks lake airplane to see about getting the nose of the plane but it was already gone due to the fact it had radar in the nose. What are your ideas?

[DIK SHEPHERD]

I've seen pictures of the filming of the cockpit scenes from both the movie "TWELVE O'CLOCK HIGH" and the TV series "12 O'CLOCK HIGH", and the Greeley bar airframe didn't look to be any of them. Unless the pilot's side of the airframe was removed after the movie, but it isn't the one from the series.

In the movie there were two different cockpits used, one for the in-the-cockpit shots and the other for outside-in-flight-cockpit shots. This could have been the outside-cockpit airframe because it still had the nose compartment. But like I said, for those shots the pilot's side panel wasn't missing.

In the movie and the series the in-cockpit shots were done with sections that were really, and I mean REALLY, hacked up (as far as the sides, tops, and fronts were concerned), and there were no nose sections on either of them. Also, the two cockpits that were used don't look to be the same units.

As to where the parts went, they were probably disposed of many years ago. Or thrown out on some studio back lot like the MGM B-17.

Here's an in-studio shot of a cockpit scene being filmed for the TV series. Notice Robert Lansing with the ever present cigarette. Also notice the way the cockpit section was cut open and that there is no nose section.

[hang the expense]

Hey Dik, great picture.In the orig movie the soundstage shot has a fuselage that looks like the greely bar section.Heres why, There is a fresh air scoop below the nose windows, that is not normally on B-17s ,in the movie shot.It matches the greely bar plane.There was also an original pic on ebay sometime back of a postwar 17 with that scoop.It had some strange markings on it that looked like wartime unit markings at the nose hatch. Maybe a VB-17 or some generals hack. Also the owner saw this hulk back in the early 70s but didnt have the money to buy it and the guy with the bar purchased it. I will check with him tomorrow as to whether it had the nose or not.

[Guest]

dik youn really do post some good pics, stop selling yourself short with your bad attitude.

[ww2John]

If I had to make a guess, the picture that Dik posted is the film crew preparing to shoot a "process shot". There is a frame with some cloth material on the rear wall of the studio you can see behind the cockpit.

After the scene was filmed they would "marry" the footage of the pilot in the cockpit with other film footage (skies? clouds? combat?) that would be inserted where that material is.

To my eye, two things give away the effect: usually the motion of film of the effect (in this case skies, clouds, combat) does not match the motion of the pilot in the cockpit footage, as it would in real life, and the occasional "halo" around the edges of the cockpit structure where the scrren is seen behind.

A similar, but different, process is used today for special effects in motion pictures and to put the weatherman into the map on TV.

[DIK SHEPHERD]

I believe that the screen in the background was for rear projecting the old "TWELVE O'CLOCK HIGH" B-17 formation flight that they always used.
The biggest problem with it was that aircraft in the background were at a slightly different angle than the cockpit, and you never saw the number 3 and 4 propellers outside the co-pilot's window.

Also notice that all the individuals in the foreground are wearing suits. Something that just doesn't happen these days.

[jpeters]

Ok Gang, Lets figure out where the missing parts got of to from the bar airplane.Here are my ideas, The nose has been missing for sometime and I figured it went to the shoo shoo baby rebuild along with the inboard wing panels.Maybe the top turret as well. I know the airforce dove on Brooks lake airplane to see about getting the nose of the plane but it was already gone due to the fact it had radar in the nose. What are your ideas?

I'm assuming you're referring to the one located inside a bar in Greeley, Colorado? If so...I talked with the gentleman that purchased the the cockpit secton. The Schiffer boys in Urbana, OH managed to get the ball turret for their project as well as several internal items within the fuselage. According to this guy the plan is to restore the fuselage section & cockpit display and tour it around to airshows, schools, vet functions, etc.

John

[hang the expense]

The owner of the greely bar fuse remembers the nose being on the plane(minus plexiglass) when it shipped out to the bar from a storage lot south of L.A. I figured the nose was sold or donated to the A/F for shoo shoo baby sometime after the move. The inboard wing panels were also replaced because of the damage incured in the return from France by C-5. Can anyone confirm if the inboard panels that were put on shoo shoo baby came from a fire bomber or not? .

[aerovin2]

After discussing the missing nose with "Hang the Expense", I'm not so sure it was missing. Not sure what we're talking about here. This photo from the the dismantling shows most of the nose still attached. Are we talking about the most forward foot or two to bulkhead 1?

See this:



Compare with this, an excerpt from the Greeley newspaper of a photo taken when the airplane was put up in 1978. Not much difference to the nose section to my unpracticed eye.

[DryMartini]

The Greely B-17 is missing BLK #1, and ribs 1A and 1B
(It looks like). "Shoo Shoo Baby"'s nose was busted, and
Hang was saying that back in the 70's, no one made parts-
they scavenged them. Putting 2 + 2 together, he opined that
the missing bulkhead and ribs could have gone into Shoo Shoo
Baby, as well as maybe the wings. We know that Baby's original
inboard wing panels were not used. He maybe could have used
more words to make it a little clearer.

[Craig59]

Here's a couple of scanned images from the film. The second highlights the 'process shot' discussed above.



[/img]

[aerovin2]

The Greely B-17 is missing BLK #1, and ribs 1A and 1B
(It looks like). "Shoo Shoo Baby"'s nose was busted, and
Hang was saying that back in the 70's, no one made parts-
they scavenged them. Putting 2 + 2 together, he opined that
the missing bulkhead and ribs could have gone into Shoo Shoo
Baby, as well as maybe the wings. We know that Baby's original
inboard wing panels were not used. He maybe could have used
more words to make it a little clearer.

Based on the photo of the airplane being put up in 1978, is that still a consideration? It looks like the nose is missing BLK#1 already. What is your take on it?

[DryMartini]

From your book, I know that Dover didn't start on
"Baby" until 1978, but that doesn't preclude knowing
about the Greeley bird, getting Blk 1 and the ribs
from 1A and 1B from the plane, and getting started.
The time frame of Dover taking on the project
and putting the fuselage up in Colorado is really close,
but who knows what deals were being made to enable
the Dover guys to take on the project?