The Blue Goose Revisited

[terveurn]

I stil want to see the original documentation on this scheme with applicable paint chips.

As mentioned before, the RAF was not happy with American manufactures (which is a proven fact) and the paint schemes as they did not match the RAF paint chips.

[robstitt]

Hello All:

Robert Stitt chipping in on various points raised here.

There is a Boeing drawing of the specified paint scheme for B-17Es to be delivered to the UK for the daytime high-altitude bombing role which, as Steve points out, never came to pass as the Fortress was ultimately considered unsuitable for the RAF's day and night bombing campaigns. The depicted day scheme is Temperate Land (Dark Green and Dark Earth) upper surfaces with Deep Sky side and under surfaces. The disruptive upper camouflage is to a standard Air Ministry pattern.

It would appear that since aircraft were in short supply for both the RAF and USAAC, airframes in both Temperate Land with Deep Sky and Dark Olive Drab were drawn from a pool at Seattle and delivered to either service as needed. This was not covered in the first edition of my book but is addressed in detail in the second edition after photos of aircraft in Temperate Land with Deep Sky in transit to the UK through Dorval and after arrival at Prestwick came to hand.

It's impossible to determine how many of each finish were delivered to the UK (or the USAAC) but my best estimate is that 21 of the 45 B-17Es delivered to Britain were in one scheme or the other. The balance of the 45 B-17Es were delivered to the UK in Temperate Sea with Sky under surfaces, an earlier Coastal Command scheme that was replaced following delivery and modification at Burtonwood with Temperate Sea with White.

I visited 41-9234/FL461 at Wau in PNG, in April 1977, and it was clearly painted in Temperate Sea on its upper surfaces - I still have the transparencies and also have a wartime colour image that confirm the Temperate Sea with Sky finish. It was one 16 delivered to Cheyenne for modification for the RAF but taken back by the USAAC. It was the only one of these to have received its Air Ministry serial, still clearly visible when I visited in 1977.

One note re Steve's contributions here: it was 41-2615/FK192 that was painted in Temperate Land with Deep Sky, rather than sistership 41-2616 being confirmed painted as such. Point was that aircraft in that serial range were being painted in Temperate Land with Deep Sky at that time.

Hope this is useful.

Robert

[robstitt]

The Boeing drawing and a reproduction of a Dupont paint chip card that includes Deep Sky are presented in the book.

Robert

[aerovin2]

Okay, I need to get that book. Thanks for contributing to this topic with some authoritative information.

[robstitt]

That would be an honor, Scott.

If you do pick up a copy, look out for ten additional appendices hosted online by the publisher - some appeared in the first edition, including the history of 41-9234 - and overall there there were too many to be accommodated in the second edition. The links appear at the end of the table of contents and are sometimes missed by purchasers.

Robert

[aerovin2]

Thanks. I will and I will.

[robstitt]

My slip. 'USAAC' should read 'USAAF' in my post of Dec 24, 2022.

Robert

[Steve Birdsall]

I still want to see the original documentation on this scheme with applicable paint chips.

In the same vein, where’s the evidence to support the theory that 41-2616 was repainted in Hawaii? I’ve again looked at where that explanation was first offered, and it seems to be Ernie McDowell’s 1987 Squadron book, Flying Fortress The Boeing B-17.

He wrote: The Blue Goose was one of the most unusually colored B-17s flown in combat, carrying a brilliant coat of Light Glossy Blue. A coat of Duco paint had been applied at the Hawaiian Air Depot as a test of what might have been a new camouflage scheme.

That was 35 years ago, and still nobody has discovered any real evidence that any of that is true.

I’m not accusing Ernie of making stuff up, but I believe he did rely on a single, unreliable 11th Bomb Group source and jumped to some very questionable conclusions.

As far as I can see, there is no real evidence at all that 41-2616 was repainted by the Hawaiian Air Depot.

[terveurn]

"A coat of Duco paint had been applied at the Hawaiian Air Depot as a test of what might have been a new camouflage scheme."

So, back to automotive paint ! Earl Scheib Paint & Body for only 49.95 we will paint any B-17.

Gloss light blue (or Ford Hessian Blue) ?

Man, that would have looked snazzy.......

hessian blue.JPG

[aerovin2]

So, I did purchase Robert Stitt’s book, second volume, and for me, Appendix B makes it pretty clear with documentation. B-17Es were delivered at Seattle with the Temperate Land and Deep Sky scheme and that included aircraft in that serial range with 42-2616. Excellent, meticulously researched book I have to add. I can see why Steve referenced it. I would suppose that 42-2616 was indeed in that same RAF scheme in AAF service.

Robert notes that a basic Boeing painting diagram for the RAF deliveries had the original engineering drawing date of July 2, 1941, but BAC was advised of the revised color scheme not until October 6. I suspect the July 2 was the date an engineer drew a “blank” B-17E drawing to be used as the basis for specifying multiple schemes. It would be interesting to see if the other painting instruction drawings for the B-17E used the same basic drawing with the same date. As Robert notes, that July 2 drawing with the Temperate Land and Deep Sky specs was not actually signed off and “approved” until March 1942. These were confusing months anyway with constantly changing requirements and specifications, some implemented before the paperwork caught up.

[Steve Birdsall]

I knew you’d be pleased with that book, Scott. It’s a gem.

I must stress that I have no evidence, photographic or otherwise, that 41-2616 was painted in the Temperate Land/Deep Sky scheme. However, it was right in the mix of B-17Es that did display that scheme.

As you say, those were confusing months. There’s a Pete Bowers photo taken in Seattle on 13 February 1942 that shows a lineup of three brand-new B-17s. In the foreground is 41-2609, displaying standard Army Air Corps camouflage and markings. It served with the 19th and 43rd bomb groups in the Southwest Pacific. Next in line are 41-2610 and 41-2611, both displaying RAF roundels and fin flashes. They were “retained” and went to the 5th and 11th bomb groups in the South Pacific.

I still hope we’ll get to the bottom of this.

[Steve Birdsall]

The Pete Bowers photo I mentioned - from his Fortress in the Sky, published in 1976.

[Steve Birdsall]

For the record, here's the Don Greer sideview from Ernie McDowell's FLYING FORTRESS The Boeing B-17 (Squadron/Signal, 1987).

[terveurn]

For the record, here's the Don Greer sideview from Ernie McDowell's FLYING FORTRESS The Boeing B-17 (Squadron/Signal, 1987).

A lot of questions and suppositions all weith nothing to back-up what is being suggested....

IF, Don Greer's side view is accurate, it opens this can of worms even wider - Boeing would not have painted the serial number as 41-2616... remember, this is Boeings paint shop and they were experienced in painting the serial numbers correctly (12616) - the same would have applied to the depots.

Seeing a tail number painted this way usually means either a small shop, a in the field painting or done in Australia; someplace not experienced doing aircraft paints for USAAC ships.

What was Don Greer's original source for this side view ? Look at the meatball in the middle of the USAAC insignia, if Greer's drawing is accurate, it is oversized (should not be touching the points on the star); this type of mistake would not be seen at Boeing, at Sacramento or from Wheeler (all depot level MX).

Without a paint chip, or hard documentation (like somebody visiting the wreck) then nothing can be nailed down.

[terveurn]

Steve - going to suggest another possibility.

How about Aztec Blue for this color scheme ?

There was another B-17 41-24457 called Aztec Curse, could this also have been a blue ship ?

41-24457.JPG

Aztec Sky.JPG