Aero Vintage Books

I was just re-reading "The Pride of Seattle", by Steve Birdsall. I noted that 41-24548 came down relatively intact at Tadji. It was stripped of parts and torn apart to repair other forts. Supposedly only the wings remain. Yet in one picture of the boneyard at Tadji you can see the Vert Stab of this aircraft and it is supposed that the fusalage or parts there off are in a nearby swamp.

Now we all know about getting Swamp Ghost out and what a nightmare that was, but my question is; isn't this a much more significant airframe? With a much greater confirmed combat history? And since it is in pieces and there is very little publicity surrounding it; wouldn't it be easier to get it out? Just thinking out loud, but isn't this ( if there is enough of the fusalage existing), the most significant Combat B-17 of the SWP, that is likely to be able to be recovered?

Just wondering if anyone has any more information on this airframe. Or thoughts in general. Besides this board has been waaaaaay to quiet lately.

Yeah, quiet.

Everybody ran away to face book.

TM

That would be great if someone could get her out. There's never enough B-17's or even parts of B-17's.

I can add some detail to this B-17 story at Tadji.

Its well recorded on a few sites and one speculates the name of the B-17 was "War Horse" but this has never been confirmed.
The reason for this is that nothing remains of the fuselage and the tail section you refer to is not B-17 or, you have an older photo than those I had taken in 2011.
Based upon a survey I paid for the only remaining B-17 sections are the inboard wing sections that, when lifted for inspection underneath, began to pull apart.
Nothing amazing in that given its been by the sea for 70 years. The fuse in the swamp is a DC-3 or C-47 but there are a number of P-39 wings and what appears to be the rear
section of an A-20 Havoc. The best aircraft in the area and one I would rather recover is the B-25 at the local school. Still quite complete although corrossion is evident in the obvious places,
but B-25 parts appear to more available and way cheaper. The B-25 is well documented on the net via B-25 at Tadji PNG search and a lot of current information comes up about it.

I wasn't aware of the US serial number you have quoted and would really appreaciate a photo copy of the page or complete details of the book you mentioned.

Hope this helps


Peter

Pride of Seattle by Steve Birdsall well documents the history of the first 300 B-17Fs. Steve posts here and perhaps he will chime in on the information you have provided here. Thanks much for posting it; every bit of firsthand information is invaluable. The book is a Squadron/Signal publication and should be available from several sources.

Peter,

Thanks for the information, that was very nice of you.

I will dig up the photo later but it was taken in the area where the A-20 and B-25 were parked; along with various P-40s, and P-39s. The Vertical Stablizer was visable in the photograph.

Interestingly in an interview, on the net, with one of the men who was on the ground recovering the aircraft for Talichet; he stated that after all the work was done and he was waiting for them to come back and get him; that he wandered into the forest and there was a complete and intact P-39. This was after being there for 2 or 3 weeks and having done a fair amount of looking around. It was the general impression that unless you lined them up like a police call and and walked them through the whole area that it was likely you would never know what all was there.

it is interesting that the reason Tallichet and Armstrong, et al, went there was because it has been untouched by post war scrappers. So if the B-17 wasn't scrapped post war, and if it was reduced to components for parts during the war...well where is the rest of it? Was there a base dump where parts were thrown in? We know this happened at other bases.

One last thing. I grew up in a Seaport. It is true that corrosion could happen very fast on the coast, but only 20 miles away and the problem was non-existent. I used to restore GTO's for a living. The cars from the coast were full of rust, even though they were only 8 to 20 years old. But the cars just inland were virtually rust free. Granted it has been 70 years. How close to the coast is Tadji?

I'll see if i can dig up the interview and pics.

Thank you very much,

Joe

Peter's post reminded me of something I was involved in about 10 years ago. While I'm sure Peter got his money's worth from his survey; I thought I would just pass along my experiance.

I was the Property Book NCO for what was left of the Old Benicia Arsenal in California. We were about to turn it over to the City of Benicia and I had to do one last property survey to make sure nothing was left behind.

I walked the entire area numerous times. I checked every building, inside and out. I talked to the old technicians that had been there since the 70s. I was writing up my final report and an older civilian walked in and was directed to my desk because i had an interest in history ( and no one else wanted to talk to him.....lol).

We got to talking and I found out he had worked there during WW2 and up till 1962. I ended up letting him take me for a tour of the post as it had been. Along the way he stopped and asked me "What are you going to do about the tanks". "What tanks. Storage tanks?". "No those old M3 Lee's over there". At which point he walked up to a manzanita bush and putting his foot through it, I heard a distinctive "clang". 10 feet away you wouldn't know they were there. Well there were two there and one down by the highway.

Son of a gun, what the heck do I do???? Do you have any idea how much paperwork is involved with filling out a "found on installation' form? I talked to the Col. and he was all for digging them up.....till i asked him if he had the budget for an environmental impact statement. And what about possible haz mat considerations?

Lmao...suffice to say we put a bulldozer to good use....

The point is there were people that had been on that base for 30 years that had never known they were there. And that was without a jungle to hide them in.

Unfortunately I can’t add much to this discussion, except to reiterate that in my opinion 41-24548 was not named “War Horse”. I’ve spent considerable time fruitlessly trying to figure out what other word or words went with the word “Horse” that we know was painted on the nose when she was with the 375th Troop Carrier Group.



This badly-deteriorated photo shows the B-17 late in her service with the 43rd Bomb Group. It’s interesting to note the B-17E nosepiece, the camouflage pattern on the tail, and the black undersurfaces.

Great thread this, well for me it is. I've been researching recoverable 17's for the last few years while madly collecting what I can.
If someone has one of those accounts you need to post pics I have a few I'd like to share and see if I can get a few things identified.

back to tadji. I looked up the book referred too. 1999 first edition. I know the guy referred to in the walk around the jungle and the P-39 he found is one
of those claimed to be "Small Fry" (yep, there are two P-39's claiming to be the same id) Anyway, the survey I had done was by a well educated local and I trust him 110%.
I believe scrapping of Tadji did occur in the 1980's and again later in the 1990's albeit on a much smaller scale compared to other sites.

There are plenty of local stories which always start off as a Spitfire or B-17 only to end up as a Fairey battle or C-47, I'm sure we've all heard of these or experienced them.
I agree with the naming re War Horse. I suspect it could be something like "To Tokyo by Horse" as the B-17 was nicknamed by many as "The Horse". Regarding what did happen
to it I suspect she was completely stripped - as the inner wings that remain would indicate a near complete deconstruction of the aircraft, but anything left would have been burnt
or buried on site. Like all bases there was a dump and all records I have show her as converted to components, so it is possible she is buried in the jungle somewhere.

The inner wings are only a few miles from the coast having been taken there in the 1990's I suspect for loading onto a barge and taking to another port for scrapping.
But there is always hope and perhaps someone could come along with more information that sets the records straight.

thanks


Peter

I can finally answer the question about that name on 41-24548. It was Harry The Horse, I guess a reference to the Damon Runyon character but I don't know why. This information came from Dave Vincent, who came up with a print of the well-known photo that revealed a bit more detail.

Interesting in that there was an southwest Pacific A-20 group (don't have my reference in front of me right now) that had a bunch of their airplanes named after Runyon characters, including one that also was called Harry the Horse, with nose art as caricatures of group pilots. Runyon must have been popular in the theater.

Excellent pic and confirms the name pretty much for me.



Peter