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What do you think? (long)
Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 9:18 am
by DryMartini
Another thread got me thinking about us warbird fanatics,
and what we'd spend to get ourselves a warbird.
Now, since I'm personally involved in a restoration, I can
see first hand what stuff costs, and the effort involved
in putting something back together. For instance:
Reading about past restorations, it would seem a monumental
task to get new parts made. Look at Tallichet's wing spar repairs
http://www.spitcrazy.com/belle.htm
Alloy being unavailable...new spar material. Sounds like big $$$,
and I'm sure it was.
The more I work with the blueprints and get things made for
our project, the more I realize that from the airframe perspective,
we have many of the parts to rebuild the fuselage. Spar carry-through
tubes, catwalk tubes, bulb angle, ribs - that stuff is available. The
systems perspective is another matter (electrical wiring, hydraulics,
vacuum system, etc). Still, even on our shoe-string budget, we've been
able to get parts made to the original plans. And even looking to
the wings (Yikes!), we've worked the wing corrugation panels, skins,
and even have a lead on making NEW center section wing spars.
So (like always), it all comes down to having the time, money and will
to do it.
I hear about groups looking for a B-17 project, and spending boatloads
of money on airframes that will need to have 80+% of the parts replaced
due to corrosion and damage, and I wonder about the logic in that. I
would almost always want original parts, but we have better control
over the alloys and heat treating these days, and for things like
60+ year old spars with cracks, wouldn't it be better to have a new
one made if your intension was to get the plane airborne? I know this
is a bit or a religious war over new-built replicas and original aircraft, and
I don't want to focus on that aspect, but rather point out that as far
as the B-17 goes, things only look difficult until you get involved.
I think we're proving that.
Does anyone see a demand for, say stinger tail turret kits, or
other neat airframe parts? It is foolish to arrange for a one time
only buy of carry through spars for anything beyond your immediate
need, knowing that at some time, someone will be looking for
that part?
Maybe I'm drinking the B-17 Kool-Aid, so what do you think?
Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 9:41 am
by Moxie1
Hi Bill,
This was the B-17 Co-Op was thinking back in the mid 80s when everyone was starting to put turrets on so they all got together made a run on the Nose Glass and both the top and bottom Turret Glass and the rings for both.
I've always thought it would be easier to have a group go together on doing up multi parts like the Tail Turret Stringers.
To give you an idea I'm presently involved with a PBY restoration and been trying to form a PBY Co-Op so we as group can get teh slide blisters and nose turret build. Now if you look at from the PBY guys stand point most of the PBY don't have any of the turrets one of the first things to go now they are some folks who have NOS stuff that we can use as a mold and then do the production run the problem is the start up price is steep 60,000 for the Nose and 40,000 for the complete Blister. Now with that said if every PBY owner kicked in say 2000 each then we could do this but thats the problem how do you go an convince someone to kick in 2000 or more when it will take up to a year to get the jig build.
I see this a major problem with in the Warbird and Classic Aircraft groups as we get into the aircraft getting up their in age the problem of parts have started to show.
Its not just the large stuff like turrets and stringers it the small parts that really seem to hold up restoration like casting for landing gear assembly Gaskets O-Rings, Actuaters. Now if someone would start producing these this would be a big help.
Then their is the Corsair main Spar issue i will not go into the politics of that mess.
I agree
Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 12:55 pm
by DryMartini
We are a part of the B-17 Co-Op (In Wisconsin this year, I hear!),
and I agree that the hardest part is getting financing for some of
these parts.
I just feel that there is a prevailing "I will do it myself" view
to getting things done on projects, and that a bit of investigation
could save $$$ and time in the long run.
A prime example is of the steel carry through spars -
I know some were machined for some projects, but the
overall cost of making a few of them was about the cost
of making the die, and with three other planes looking for
these spars, the overall cost would have been shared, and
come in at third of the price.
Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 2:11 pm
by Moxie1
Bill,
I wonder why more of the groups don't form Co-Ops i would think it would help with restoration.
Think about if the B-25 guys could get the main spar stuff build
The Corsair guy if they decide to set aside there bickering they could get the main Wing Spar done and then we could see at least six Corsair back in the Air.
Mustang guys could start doing the Stringers.
The list could go on, I think the best thing that happen for the 17 Co-Op was it showed that it could be done to bad not much has been done lately, I think when the whole spar problem came out the 17 guys should have work together more to help each other. Also I would like to see the Co-Op help restoration like Desert Rat and a few others there must be many thing that as a group could help each other.
By the way how goes the rat rebuild?
Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 5:16 pm
by jpeters
Well, you know who to call Bill when you're ready to start making ball turret shell recastings. I'll go in with you and I'm sure we could find a few others.
John
The Rat
Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 7:35 pm
by DryMartini
Things are going pretty well right now with the Rat.
Working on the area below the cockpit. Will be replacing
several of the catwalk tubes (the lower one split, and the upper
has corrosion issues), will replace a longeron once the
order comes in, and we also hope to hang the nose this year.
Will be nice to have the fuselage from STA 1 to STA 6 intact.
Re: The Rat
Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 9:14 pm
by Moxie1
DryMartini wrote:
Things are going pretty well right now with the Rat.
Working on the area below the cockpit. Will be replacing
several of the catwalk tubes (the lower one split, and the upper
has corrosion issues), will replace a longeron once the
order comes in, and we also hope to hang the nose this year.
Will be nice to have the fuselage from STA 1 to STA 6 intact.
You need to start a Gary type thread when things start to get closer. Did you every find out what happen to the gear the report I understand was they end up with a group in New York. I have one of the Cowlings sorry not going to give it up for a simple fact it has my family name on it. If you think you can guess the name just keep it to yourself
Have you done any work on the mid section or the tail are yet?
More Rat Status
Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 7:13 am
by DryMartini
We have the landing gear. The engines, cowlings, and props
were taken from the scrap yard before Mike got the plane.
He got a call one day by some guy, saying that he had the engines
and props, and would sell them, but the number he left was bogus.
Mike heard that some B-25 guy in New York had them, but he
never was able to verify that.
As for the tail, the fuselage from STA 6 to STA 7 is all back together,
the cargo door is out and the left waist gun station is back in.
We're awaiting the delivery of bulkheads 7, 10, and 11. The tail gun
enclosure is off being copied and repaired by a top notch guy
associated with Don Brooks.
I saw that Gary thread, and you are right - once we get farther
along, that may be a way to help get some of the fitting-out parts
together.
Good to see you posting again.
Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 8:16 am
by aerovin2
Bill,
If you sent me photos and some basic information about the photos as progress is made I can tag a web page onto my site and keep it up as you guys work along. It would be nice to see a chronological record of progress being made.
Can Do!
Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 1:45 pm
by DryMartini
I've wanted to do that for a LONG time, but
I just can never get over the hump of work, family,
and B-17 related work. I'll email some picts to you
with dates and descriptions, and if you can do your
magic, that would be appreciated!
thread
Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 8:06 pm
by hang the expense
