I'm sitting here in Ft Gordon without my copy of the "Final Cut".
Has anything ever been found that proves 44-8543 has a combat history?
I ask because I was playing around on the net when I found the following:
44-8529: 34th BG (PFF)
44-8540: accident report in Germany. March 1945
44-8541: "Buckeye Belle" 384th BG
44-8542: 333BS, 94th BG ( accident report)
44-8544: Accident report, Belgium Christmas Eve, 1944
44-8545: 427th BS (PFF)
44-8547: 487th BG
44-8556: 34th BG (PFF)
44-8598: 34th BG (PFF)
It looks like a lot of this block were PFF birds. It would make more sense for an entire block to be modifed and sent overseas.
Or is this all just old hat?
Joe
44-8543
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jmkendal
Both of these crashes were stateside.
I guess it really depends on when this a/c entered service. If it was much before this then it could have deployed to the war zone and then back to the ZI.
If it was close to the crash date, then it would be more likely that it was accepted into service with a test squadron. Perhaps doing "all weather work".
Actually I guess the thing to do would be to track down the records of the squadron she was with at WPAFB and see when she is taken on charge there.
Anyone up to a trip to the National Archives?
Oh, and by the way, does anyone know if there are plans to convert her back to a PFF bird? I think that would be super cool, given that it would be a unique conversion and one that would be fully justified.
Joe
I guess it really depends on when this a/c entered service. If it was much before this then it could have deployed to the war zone and then back to the ZI.
If it was close to the crash date, then it would be more likely that it was accepted into service with a test squadron. Perhaps doing "all weather work".
Actually I guess the thing to do would be to track down the records of the squadron she was with at WPAFB and see when she is taken on charge there.
Anyone up to a trip to the National Archives?
Oh, and by the way, does anyone know if there are plans to convert her back to a PFF bird? I think that would be super cool, given that it would be a unique conversion and one that would be fully justified.
Joe
I've found the accident report entry for 12th February 1945:
Date: 45-02-12
Aircraft Type: B-17G
Serial Number: 44-8543
Sqdn: Test Branch
Group: -
Home Base: Wright-Patterson Field, OH
AF: -
Action: CRLW (Crash Landing, Weather)
D: 3
Pilot: Dennison, Warren C
Country: USA
US State: OH
Location: Cleveland Municipal Airport, OH
I haven't found the September accident report yet though.
All the best,
Paul
Date: 45-02-12
Aircraft Type: B-17G
Serial Number: 44-8543
Sqdn: Test Branch
Group: -
Home Base: Wright-Patterson Field, OH
AF: -
Action: CRLW (Crash Landing, Weather)
D: 3
Pilot: Dennison, Warren C
Country: USA
US State: OH
Location: Cleveland Municipal Airport, OH
I haven't found the September accident report yet though.
All the best,
Paul
I believe that is one of the long-term aims.jmkendal wrote: Oh, and by the way, does anyone know if there are plans to convert her back to a PFF bird? I think that would be super cool, given that it would be a unique conversion and one that would be fully justified.
Joe
I found another mention of 44-8543 in the Accident Record Index:
Date: 45-07-09
Aircraft Type: B-17G
Serial Number: 44-8543
Sqdn: -
Group: -
Home Base: Dayton AAF
AF: ATSC
Action: TAC (Taxiing ACcident)
D: BL
Pilot: Porter, John E
Country: USA
US State: OH
Location: Dayton AAF
TTFN,
Paul
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aerovin2
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Very interesting information coming to light here as to the apparent fact the airplane was in the U.S. on February 12, 1945. The airplane was accepted for duty on October 17, 1944, so that it was assigned for testing at Wright-Patterson only four months later calls into question whether this airplane was, in fact, modified as a pathfinder and also whether it ever went overseas.
My gut feeling, based on this newly uncovered data and a review of many similar record cards (there is not one available for 44-8543 between October 1944 and September 1945) is that it was assigned to Wright-Patterson from the beginning and was probably never modified as a pathfinder with the H2X radar. The thinking that it was a pathfinder has largely been based on the suffix of "A" on the serial, as in "44-8543A", a large jump to conclusions that has not been confirmed by any official AAF reference as far as I know.
There is possible repaired combat damage in the skin, but the source of that is also unknown. Combat damage or ramp rash? Interesting new material. It has always seemed a bit peculiar that a combat veteran aircraft was assigned to Wright Field after the war when there were so many brand new B-17s in storage at nearby Patterson Field.
What is surprising to me is that the accident data has always been available but it is only now that two and two are being put together by some diligent researchers.
My gut feeling, based on this newly uncovered data and a review of many similar record cards (there is not one available for 44-8543 between October 1944 and September 1945) is that it was assigned to Wright-Patterson from the beginning and was probably never modified as a pathfinder with the H2X radar. The thinking that it was a pathfinder has largely been based on the suffix of "A" on the serial, as in "44-8543A", a large jump to conclusions that has not been confirmed by any official AAF reference as far as I know.
There is possible repaired combat damage in the skin, but the source of that is also unknown. Combat damage or ramp rash? Interesting new material. It has always seemed a bit peculiar that a combat veteran aircraft was assigned to Wright Field after the war when there were so many brand new B-17s in storage at nearby Patterson Field.
What is surprising to me is that the accident data has always been available but it is only now that two and two are being put together by some diligent researchers.
Could it be possible that she was converted with PFF equipment, and then used for H2X development and testing by the ATSC?
This interior photo I have here of a PFF-equipped B-17 from that serial number range in 401BG, 8AF service, is fitted with the AN/APS-15 set but with the computer from the AN/APQ-13 set:
The aircraft shown in the photo is one of the following, which one I can't tell currently:
44-8153
44-8258
44-8259
44-8371
44-8449
44-8454
44-8550
44-8648
44-8653
44-8707
44-8708
44-8812
44-8825
I suppose one way to tell is if anyone has the installation drawings and could match up any holes or surviving fittings in the airframe.
If these drawings are out there I'd certainly be interested in seeing a copy for my own research.
All the best,
Paul
This interior photo I have here of a PFF-equipped B-17 from that serial number range in 401BG, 8AF service, is fitted with the AN/APS-15 set but with the computer from the AN/APQ-13 set:
The aircraft shown in the photo is one of the following, which one I can't tell currently:
44-8153
44-8258
44-8259
44-8371
44-8449
44-8454
44-8550
44-8648
44-8653
44-8707
44-8708
44-8812
44-8825
I suppose one way to tell is if anyone has the installation drawings and could match up any holes or surviving fittings in the airframe.
If these drawings are out there I'd certainly be interested in seeing a copy for my own research.
All the best,
Paul
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aerovin2
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Yes,
That would a way to confirm the mods. Of course, that airplane has also had numerous mods through the years so others may have been obliterated.
What I am curious about, I guess, is how this airplane was originally labeled as a PFF airplane, other than the "A" suffix on the serial number. There isn't anything in the available military records to suggest it, so how did this "fact" about the airplane get started? When I get a chance I'll cull through my file on 44-8543 to see where it gets mentioned first.
I would suspect that if the airplane was a Wright Field from the start it was one of the first All-Weather Center airplanes, so perhaps a history of that Center might help answer questions.
That would a way to confirm the mods. Of course, that airplane has also had numerous mods through the years so others may have been obliterated.
What I am curious about, I guess, is how this airplane was originally labeled as a PFF airplane, other than the "A" suffix on the serial number. There isn't anything in the available military records to suggest it, so how did this "fact" about the airplane get started? When I get a chance I'll cull through my file on 44-8543 to see where it gets mentioned first.
I would suspect that if the airplane was a Wright Field from the start it was one of the first All-Weather Center airplanes, so perhaps a history of that Center might help answer questions.
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jmkendal
I have just found where the CAF Nose Art collection has the remains of 44-8584; which is part of the block we are taking a look at.
The serial number is still stenciled on the remains. Unfortunately there is no "A" suffix.
I have found a couple of pictures on the net of other block 70-VEs which show the serial, notably 8556. However; the photo was not of sufficient quality to ascertain whether the serial number used the "A" suffix. This is, in any event, a significant piece of evidence. In that it is , most probably, the last original example of a block 70-VE stencil.
I would suspect that the "A" suffix was a post production addition. My experiance with Army Airframes shows many examples where the data plate was amended by hand after a particular modification was made to the Airframe that significantly changed that a/c from it initial production version.
The question then becomes "Was the 'A' suffix applied to a/c that were significantly modified ( i.e. was the "A"[alpha] a generic identifier), or was the 'A' suffix used for a specific modification?"
Perhaps a look at the surviving "five" engine test beds is in order. If they retain thier original data plates and if they have an alpha modifier then it would seem that the alpha modifier was generic.
If there is no alpha modifier or if the modifier is different then it becomes more likely that the alpha modifier was used for a specific purpose.
Joe
The serial number is still stenciled on the remains. Unfortunately there is no "A" suffix.
I have found a couple of pictures on the net of other block 70-VEs which show the serial, notably 8556. However; the photo was not of sufficient quality to ascertain whether the serial number used the "A" suffix. This is, in any event, a significant piece of evidence. In that it is , most probably, the last original example of a block 70-VE stencil.
I would suspect that the "A" suffix was a post production addition. My experiance with Army Airframes shows many examples where the data plate was amended by hand after a particular modification was made to the Airframe that significantly changed that a/c from it initial production version.
The question then becomes "Was the 'A' suffix applied to a/c that were significantly modified ( i.e. was the "A"[alpha] a generic identifier), or was the 'A' suffix used for a specific modification?"
Perhaps a look at the surviving "five" engine test beds is in order. If they retain thier original data plates and if they have an alpha modifier then it would seem that the alpha modifier was generic.
If there is no alpha modifier or if the modifier is different then it becomes more likely that the alpha modifier was used for a specific purpose.
Joe
I hadn't come across an A-suffix for this, or any other, PFF equipped B-17 until this thread. I first found it in relation to Chuckie on the FAA Registry Certificate.
As a cross-check, I looked at the French Registry for F-BGSO 44-8889 which was also a PFF aircraft, there is no suffix on that certificate.
The 401st BG PFF Fort's serial numbers listed upthread came from the Group's Squadron diaries, and none of the serial number lists in the diaries carries an suffix.
Similarly, photos of the same aircraft in use do not show a suffix on the fin.
Hope that helps,
Paul
As a cross-check, I looked at the French Registry for F-BGSO 44-8889 which was also a PFF aircraft, there is no suffix on that certificate.
The 401st BG PFF Fort's serial numbers listed upthread came from the Group's Squadron diaries, and none of the serial number lists in the diaries carries an suffix.
Similarly, photos of the same aircraft in use do not show a suffix on the fin.
Hope that helps,
Paul
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Second Air Force
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Well, this is a little older thread, but I have some new information that fills in some of the blanks about Chuckie, 44-8543.
Our crew chief, Bill (CrewDawg) Gorin got a copy of both accident reports involving 543. The incident in February of '45 has a few photos in the report, and the radome is clearly visible in at least one of the pictures. In addition to that, I've spent a good bit of time crawling around in the innards of the old girl, and the reducing plug is still in the ball turret hole for the radome. Another cover has been riveted on the filler plate to fair the hole closed.
The "A" suffix on the serial number is likely a post-war addition. I asked the serial number guru at AFHRA about the suffix earlier this year, and Augie explained that A denoted an airplane assigned to the active USAF inventory. Reserve and National Guard airplanes got other suffixes. This fits with '543 as she was in the active inventory while assigned to the Weather Unit. There are a number of B-25s with an A suffix that served in the USAF as trainers post-war that tends to prove this out.
Chuckie has a second dataplate in the aft fuselage that shows only 44-8543 with no suffix.
We're definitely going to work towards installing full H2X equipment as we are able to collect the components we need. Stay tuned!
Scott
Our crew chief, Bill (CrewDawg) Gorin got a copy of both accident reports involving 543. The incident in February of '45 has a few photos in the report, and the radome is clearly visible in at least one of the pictures. In addition to that, I've spent a good bit of time crawling around in the innards of the old girl, and the reducing plug is still in the ball turret hole for the radome. Another cover has been riveted on the filler plate to fair the hole closed.
The "A" suffix on the serial number is likely a post-war addition. I asked the serial number guru at AFHRA about the suffix earlier this year, and Augie explained that A denoted an airplane assigned to the active USAF inventory. Reserve and National Guard airplanes got other suffixes. This fits with '543 as she was in the active inventory while assigned to the Weather Unit. There are a number of B-25s with an A suffix that served in the USAF as trainers post-war that tends to prove this out.
Chuckie has a second dataplate in the aft fuselage that shows only 44-8543 with no suffix.
We're definitely going to work towards installing full H2X equipment as we are able to collect the components we need. Stay tuned!
Scott