Aero Vintage Books

Came across this one on eBay. Almost passed it by thinking it was a standard B17F image. But something about the nose caught my attention and I realized it was an E model with an interesting modification. My assumption based on the white bar to the star on the fuselage with out an outline that this is a PTO B17E. But with no view of the serial it's just a guess. I figure the experts here might know more about this particular 17

First the photo of the 17 overall.


Close up of the nose with the single 50 pointed forward in the nose glass. I'd not seen that look before on an E


Finally a look at the tail. Any idea what the modification is behind the waist window? Looks to be an open window with a wind deflector along with something attached to the fuselage above it.

With the wind deflector it would seem to be a camera port and maybe also used for leaflet drops as well.Cant imagine who they wanted to drop leaflets to so my guess is camera.

Interesting also in that the photo shows the transition from the blue-only disc and star to the added white 'wings' on each side of the disc insignia. No blue (or red, I guess) surround has been added, or if it is there, it is a very thin line. Hard to tell.

For what it's worth, that B-17E displays various features that lead me to believe it's a Fifth Air Force plane . . . it could be 41-2627 R.F.D. Tojo after the cheek gun windows were enlarged but I can't quite figure out what happened with the nose art. Unfortunately I can't find a better photo than this one . . .



Of course it could also be one of the other aircraft that was modified to carry cameras, an unknown (to me) but relatively small number of B-17Es that included the famous
41-2666.

Anyway, I'm really pleased that photo found a good home.

This truly IS an interesting airplane.

The object above the port on the fuselage sure looks like a vacuum venturi to me. This has me wondering what gyro instruments might have been added (if any).......

Second Air Force wrote:This truly IS an interesting airplane.

The object above the port on the fuselage sure looks like a vacuum venturi to me. This has me wondering what gyro instruments might have been added (if any).......

That's what it looks like to me too. I dug through John Stanaway's book on the 8th PRS from the 5th AF and there are a number of photos of RFD Tojo. None show the venturi or the open hatch below it so I think we can rule that one out. There is another image in that book of another recce 17E named "Blanch" with an eight ball on the left side of the nose. It has the same nose gun set up as RFD Tojo and this bird. Apparently RFD Tojo and the other 17 were hand me downs from the 43rd BG.

So It seems a fair assumption that the photo shows a 5th AF 17E. Wouldn't it be a kick if it was actually 666?

Ah well, it's always fun to try and solve mysteries!

Thanks to all of you for the insight.

This may or may not be relevant to the B-17E in Dan's photo, but on 30 May 1942 the 435th Bomb Squadron noted that their “new airplane is acquiring some fifty thousand dollars worth of cameras, replacing P-38 reccos, those ships too often failing to get back with the pictures”.

That "new airplane" was 41-2666 and I believe its first mission was flown on 8 June 1942. Weather and Japanese fighters disrupted the flight, but it was noted that the plane could "certainly cover a large area well, what with all the oblique cameras involved".

I spent the better part of my work day thinking about this image. I keep wondering about the possible venturi and what that vacuum source was powering, and the only (good) items I can come up with would be a turn coordinator or artificial horizon. I reckon it's possible that the camera operator could use either of these to verify the airplane was straight-and-level when shooting "strip" images with those oblique cameras. I used to visit with an F-5 photo pilot and he mentioned that you needed to stay wings level and keep a steady heading if the photo interpreters were to have any luck splicing images together with oblique photography.

As for this possibly being an image of 666, I had the exact same thought! I was fortunate to visit with Maj. Zeamer years ago and he only mentioned that the airplane was "shit-brindle green" just like all Fortresses, nothing about the actual markings or if it had the bars added to the fuselage insignia.

Regardless, this is a great photo and it has stimulated my brain once again!
Scott

I suppose the question becomes, how many 5th AF B-17E were modified for recce work beyond 666 and 267? We know this isn't RFD Tojo as there is no evidence of the Venturi on it even though it has the camera port.

666 still could be a candidate as the ID of this bird . I suppose somewhere there is a tech order for the camera modification and addition of the Venturi.

Throw in the nose gun mod and the list can't be too long as one would suspect it got that addition the same time it got the cameras.

Some interesting food for thought. I started re-reading "The Eightballers" about the 8th PRS in the PTO.

Turns out they had three B-17s during 42-43. The book is essentially a transcription of the wartime unit diary so it's from the time and not looking back.

The first recce 17 they got was none other than "2666". This was in July 1942 and she was with them til May 43 when she was sent to the 65th. While 666 was getting overhauled in July 42 they were given 458 an older E with the remote turret. She did some early mapping flights. Interestingly enough the diary mentions getting word about the Zeamer flight in June 43. Even more interesting is the description of the mission flown by 666 on April 11th where 10 Zekes spent 20 minutes shooting up 666 knocking out the hydraulics and putting holes in her. One of the gunners was given credit for killing 2 Zekes. She is referred to as " Hard Luck Hattie" and may also be the 17 in the image named Blanche.

627 joined the 8th in January and is described as a throwaway from the 43rd that needed all kinds of work to get her up to combat ready. The diary also describes her as bristling with guns! I detect a pattern in story telling about aircraft received from other units. 627. Better known as RFD Tojo lasted until a crash in December 43. None of the photos of her in the book show the white bar to the star so I think that supports the photo above in not being 627.

So I suppose this could be 666 sometime in 43 before she went back to the 65th and history with the Zeamer crew. The nose gun set up matches the other 8th PRS 17 photos. The camera set up is similar to 627. The diary mentions oblique and infrared camera work with cameras on both sides.

I won't go so far as to say for certain, but it is intriguing to think this might be 666 with the 8th PRS.

An edit to the above. Closer reading shows the 8th PRS lost thier 17s to the 435th BS in early September 42. 666 returned to the 8th PRS in November 42 followed by 627 in January 43.

And another edit. A photo of the wreck of RFD Tojo shows the white bar to the star on the fuselage. That increases the odds that the no nose art bird above is in fact 666 when she and 627 were both with the 8th PRS

I should be sleeping but have 2666 on the brain. Last bit for tonight. Based on the wartime 8th PRS diary, 666 flew her last recce mission on May 14, 1943. She was then flown to the base of the 65th BS that she'd been transferred to. Jay Zeamer flew her for the first time on May 18, 1943.

To read the story of 666 on the web or elsewhere, she's described as a bad luck plane that no one will fly that has been sent to the boneyard where she is resurrected by Zeamer and crew. Considering her last combat flight was 4 days before Zeamer flew her, and that she'd been flown in to the 65th, how much of a wreck could she have been?

Seems to suggest the story has gotten better with age. Interestingly the Pacific Wrecks site says she went to the 8th PRS after the Zeamer flight, when in fact she had been with the 8th PRS since July of 42.

Don't you just love history

Those white bars on the fuselage insignia mean that Dan's photo must have been taken around September 1943 or later, so I'll try to put some of this into perspective, at least as far as the 43rd Bomb Group involvement is concerned.

The 8th Photo Squadron B-17s operated very closely with the 19th Bomb Group at all times during 1942. When they went home at the end of the year 41-2666 was transferred to the 403rd Bomb Squadron of the 43rd Bomb Group.

It was then transferred from the 403rd to the 65th Squadron, but it's unclear whether that was in April or May of 1943.

41-2666 did not fly with 65th after the Zeamer mission on 16 June.

It was reassigned to the 63rd Bomb Squadron (the last of the 43rd's squadrons to convert to the B-24) in September 1943. Its first mission with the 63rd was on 19 September with F/O Halbert Miller and his B-24 crew. They aborted due to ball turret failure. Its only completed mission with the 63rd was on 25 September with Lt Harry Park and his crew.

The plane was named Lucy while it was in the 65th Squadron and still had that name painted on the nose in the 63rd Squadron and when it left the 43rd Group in October 1943.

The stuff about 41-2666 being pulled from the boneyard is absurd.

It' stories like this that keep me coming back to this fine web-site! Keep up the great work gentlemen1

I doubt will ever be able to say it with 100 percent certainty but so far the evidence points to this being 666 after it was repaired post Zeamer flight, and probably while with the 63rd BS. One could speculate that the fresh paint on the nose and nose glass frame reflects the repairs done to the nose damage inflicted on the Zeamer flight.

At this point, and I'm sure Steve will correct me if something else has turned up, 2627 and 2666 were the only camera modified B-17E flying in the 5th AF. We know 627 had nose art on both sides and 666 didn't until being named Lucy in the 63rd. Dark rudder on 626, light colored on 666.

Again nothing is certain but it's fun to see what we find keep pointing back to 666