Yet another Air Scouts B-17, plus maybe 2 more

[Chris Brame]

Illinois again, this time Rockford:

Rockford Air Scouts B-17.jpg

Rockford Air Scouts B-17 2.jpg

And here are two more stories that turned up - although I don't know if the deals actually went through:

Herald_and_News_Thu__Feb_27__1947_.jpg

The_Los_Angeles_Times_Sun__Mar_24__1946_.jpg

[terveurn]

Just sent an e-mail to BSA.

I know their archives are immense, just a matter of finding somebody who has time and access to these records.

Let's see if the BSA has a master listing of these aircraft donated between 1946 ~ 1948

[jmkendall]

Apparently Dry Martini has some information about the Rockford aircraft: http://warbirdinformationexchange.org/p ... 6&start=15

Not much I admit, but since there was a local rumor and there really was a B-17 in the area, it might still be in existance!

[jmkendall]

So...I love to research and the net is a great thing. However; most of you probably don't know that I made money as a detective for 11 years and worked as a contractor for an alphabet agency doing investigative work. I mention this because I think that if you want to run down rumors of buried aircraft ( Illionis and Ma) or just what happened to them you would probably do much better going to the local VFW or AMVETS chapters. Most of the WW2 vets are gone, but there are still a bunch of vets born in the 30s and 40s who are still around and who like to tell stories.

As an example in my home town a construction crew found an underground passage where on a street where there had been rumors of underground passages and rooms for decades. Of course most "serious" people poo pooed such stores as mere folklore. The truly fascinating part was that an older gentleman in town was contacted as part of a "halloween' series shortly after this occured.

Much to everyones surprise he showed them where secret doors and passages were in several buildings. Lol..the bank Pres was not amused to find a secret door right behind his desk.

The point is, that what is "common knowledge" to 99 percent of the people can be dead wrong and within living memory of a select few who just never thought about passing that memory one because; as that older gentleman said "Well damn...every darn fool knows those rooms exist. Where else would you go to get drunk during prohibition?"

Secondly, I did a bunch of digging in RFC/WAA records and found a receit for the disposal of the records for individual sales back in the 80s. So..unfortunately those records are gone...maybe. I also found where some copies of some records were made for various investigations. But we would have to look into the Congressional files.

There is evidence that an Aircraft seller and parts supplier had acess to a master list of Educational donations. It seems that in 1949 there was a demand for B-17s. Specifically B-17s. There was a fairly well known dealer in the Pacific Northwest who went around to various schools and municipalities to purchase thier B-17s. Sometimes he flew them out, sometimes he "scraped" them on site. However; reducing to compenents would be a better description. I found testimony where he said he purchased dozens of these "educational" forts. He would not admit as to his source of information, but it was obvious he must have had a list as there is just no way he could have known from his location in Washington about a display aircraft in....."out in the country" Tennessee; as a for instance.

It is interesting to me that one man single handed led the destruction of so many post war B-17s in order to enrich himself.

[aerovin2]

It is interesting to me that one man single handed led the destruction of so many post war B-17s in order to enrich himself.

That may be a bit of a harsh assessment considering this same individual used those parts to support all the B-17 operators through the 1950s and 1960s and 1970s, and also considering this was just after many thousands of B-17s were scrapped as virtually worthless. Hindsight is 20/20, as they say.

Not being overly critical, but the line of folks who wanted to save any old B-17 between 1945 and 1960 was pretty short. Good thing the air tanker business came along.

[aerovin2]

And I shall get these B-17s posted on my RFC/WAA page...

I've been reluctant to post some of this information because it is so sketchy but in retrospect it is better to get it out there so we can all ponder over it and do a bit of digging.

https://www.aerovintage.com/RFC_B17.htm

And along the same lines, this airplane remains a mystery...where was it and when was it and where did it go? We know it came out of Altus but???

[terveurn]

That may be a bit of a harsh assessment considering this same individual used those parts to support all the B-17 operators through the 1950s and 1960s and 1970s, and also considering this was just after many thousands of B-17s were scrapped as virtually worthless. Hindsight is 20/20, as they say.

Not being overly critical, but the line of folks who wanted to save any old B-17 between 1945 and 1960 was pretty short. Good thing the air tanker business came along.

How about any old B-17 between 1945 ~ 1980 was targeted for scrapping.

Well know that several combat B-17's were scrapped in Switzerland late 1960's early 1970's. How about the French scrapping almost all of their B-17s' early 1970 ~ 1975 (including a B-17F).

How many crashed air tankers in the 1970's were parted out ?

Then you have the 10 ~ 15 ex-Indian AF B-24's that were last reported in mid 1970's?

the Soviet Union reported scrapped their B-24's in the early 1970's

Those of us old farts cringe at the warbird industry in the 1970''s (including the CAF and NASM) -- if it is not 100% intact and free, we do not want it (the CAF had the opportunity to purchase the French B-17 and was offered two of the Swiss B-17's when they were involved in BoB) (NASM had the opportunity to acquire B-24 Lady Be Good in 1960)

*****

Still waiting for somebody to offer to goto Oklahoma City and see if the 4 combat B-17's reported bury'd after the failed gas-station promotion went bust actually exist.

[jmkendall]

Dave there are some...inconsistancies with what you posted.

This is the first that I have heard of any B-17s being held by the Swiss past the immediate post war Period. In fact if there b-17s just lying around why did they have to go to the trouble of pulling one out of a lake for display? It may be well known...but I have never heard it and I have been pulling serials of surviving B-17s since the early 70s...till Scott's book made that unneccesary.

The French B-17s. Fully half of them survived till one crashed in the filming of the Memphis Belle. Six of fourteen is not a bad survival rate and certainly not an example of "Scrap them all".

The Indians did supply five or six of the surviving aircraft today. Why the rest were scrapped when the Indians were famous for leaving airframes lying around for decades is interesting.

There were opportunities missed in the nascent years of the Warbird movement. The final scraping of Mortai and Biak; the excavation of one of the buial pits at Clark and another on Tinian. There were at least two B-17s scrapped in the 70s when interest was definetly there. There has always been a race between the preservationist and the scraper. Look at the last F-15 reporter. It was apparently still in existance in a scrap yard in San Jose Califoria until the early 80s. No one knew it was there.

If the "scrap them all" mentality had been indeed real then none of the B-17s between 45 and 80 would have survived. Perhaps a slight exaggeration.

As to the trop that "Anyone could have bought one that wanted one...but they didnt". The cost of a no strings attached B-17 was $13,500. In todays inflation adjusted numbers that is about $200k per machine. NO. they were not PRACTICALLY available for anyone that wanted one. Even if you could blink twice and get one for "educational purposes", the $350 +$500 ferry fee was the equivelant of $12,000 in todays money. About six months pay for the typical current American. The BLS, using IRS data show that fully half of all Americans make less than $27k gross a year.

B-17s were very popular post war. SAR versions in the USAF, USN ( and other versions), Brazil, and Portugaul. As Bombers in Isreal. Intruders in Taiwan. Meat and cargo haulers in South America, and on and on.

Was I harsh in my assesment of a business man? No, not really. He didn't have the capital to buy as many as he wanted to for his business. The answer? Go round up the display aircraft for much less than paying the government. Let the locals get the "Educational Price" and then he could swoop in and get them for much cheaper than buying them from the government. IT was good business. But horrible for the preservation of any future aircraft. By the 1950s the Navy supplied enough airframes to part out and make a profit from, at much more reasonable prices. Were he really smart he could have gone to Paul Mantz and got the salvage rights to his B-17s. Hindsight may be 20-20 but this man knew he was buying up a limited resource, which was not hindsight. It was a forward thinking business decision that was good for him and bad for us. Btw there was an INCREDIBLE amount of surplus out there after the war. Most for pennies on the dollars. Engines, Accessories, Gauge replacement packages,ect, ect.

When I was working out of Ft Meade 6 to 10 years ago, I spent a lot of time at the archives. It is truely amazing what was out there. We talked on here, in part about a Congressional Commitee investigating surplus abuses. Partially because after the Governments orgy of divestment, it found it needed some of the things it had sold, or given away. Many times buying them back for more than the initial cost. This happened even in the 60s when some enterpising forward thinker bought all the Skyraider surplus from NAS Alemeda and then turned around and sold it to the AF.

Too many times one persons greed has led to the destruction of history. I understand it, I just don't like.