Aero Vintage Books

Posted: **Fri Apr 24, 2009 9:11 am**

Between Tony Mireles' list, Dan Johnson's visuals from "Air Force" and his photos from "Hendricks Field-Prepare For Combat" and Col. Saavedra's list of aircraft at Hendricks before or during filming,
here is a possible list of the B-17B aircraft that WERE "MODERNIZED, " either completely brought up to B-17C Standard by Boeing, or partially brought up to more modern standard by having, at miimum, the waist gun positions brought up to B-17C Standard, as well as the nose gun positions changed from the single .50 nose cap position to 6 .30 mounts in various nose windows along with a more modern D/F "football" in place of the gigantic loop, although some aircraft also had the radio room top gun position modernized to B-17C Standard flush position as well - and all of which partial upgrades were done, according to evidence as of May 20, 2009, at San Antonio Air Depot, with all of these modified aircraft, whether partially or completely, being redelivered in August, 1941, along with the first production aircraft, which was done at Wright Field:
(Numbers in quotes are Hendricks ID or "Air Force" fake ID or Lowery or other)
38-211 "8211""18" (the first airplane, fully done at Wright field
38-212 "8212" (tail seen behind "9001" in Lowery Field 1943 photo)
38-213 (at Sebring/Hendricks June-August 1942)
38-215 "1" (Cold Weather Testing, Alaska, crashed July 1942){waists}
38-216 "2" (Cold Weather Testing, Alaska, crashed NV 1941){waists}
38-218"8218" low on fin ("Mildred" Ephrata WA pic crash July 1942)
38-219 (crash photos in Ecuador, September 1942){waists/radio}
38-221 (Panama Command, crash 1942)
38-258
38-259 (at Sebring/Hendricks June-August 1942)
38-260 (at Sebring/Hendricks June-August 1942)
38-261"8261""07" (seen taxying out, flightline scenes, "Air Force")
38-262"12"? (at Sebring, crash March, 1942){waists?}
38-268 "79" [Amarillo 1944](at Sebring/Hendricks June-August 1942)
38-269 (at Sebring/Hendricks June-August 1942)
38-270"8270""17" (Photo, Hendricks Field-Prepare for Combat)
38-583 (Crash list, USAAF Fatal Aviation Accidents, 1941-1945)
38-584"8584""10" ("05564""Mary-Ann" in "Air Force", Sebring,
6-8/1942) {fully modernized, like 38-211, 38-218, 38-261, & 38-270}
39-001"9001""15" (behind John Garfield entering 8584, "Air Force")
(Lowery boneyard 1942 photo, Fortress In The Sk)
{boneyard photo shows waists + radio modernized}
39-003 [Amarillo 1944] (at Sebring/Hendricks June-August 1942)full
39-006"9006""04" (tail top photo, Hendricks Field-Prepare for Combat)
39-007 "12"? (at Sebring/Hendricks, June-August 1942){waists/radio}

NOTE: This list includes aircraft with only the waist positions modernized, as for 38-215 and 38-216, aircraft completely upgraded, as for 38-211, 38-218, 38-219, 38-261, 38-270, and 38-584, and aircraft that may have received anything in beween.

I've asked Michael J. Lombardi, Boeing Historian, to double-check me on this.

Dan Katz

Posted: **Fri Apr 24, 2009 2:39 pm**

What constitutes 'modernized' for a B17B. I ask as this #12 one sure seems to have the early style lower gun blister instead of the gun tub. We've seen photos of the waist windows updated while retaining the old style radio room and lower gun positions.

Are they modernized?

Posted: **Fri Apr 24, 2009 2:47 pm**

Dan,
As I NOW (May 16, 2009)y understand it, that comes from the stamp "MODERNIZED" in the Individual Aircraft Record Card pages: This means, as I understand it, that the aircraft had NOT gone through BOEING and HAD NOT been completely upgraded to B-17C/B-17D Standard.

I could easily be wrong about this. Dik Shepard, are you listening?

Could someone please double-check on the various Individual Aircraft Record Cards for aircraft we KNOW to have the late waist AND radio room AND BELLY"BATHTUB" gun positions and nose, whether from Air Force, the Sebring Yearbook, or Tony Mireles' crash photos or other photos?
To whit, 38-219, 38-261, 38-270, 38-584. and maybe even 38-211?(COULD 38-211 have gotten the final "bathtub from BOEING???)
IF ALL these aircraft have that stamp in their IARCs, then it's obvious.
This "Modernized" either typed or stamped, means the partial, upgrade to flush waists (and possibly radio) and .30 nose mounts, with the ADF "football".

Hope this helps some.

Can someone please straighten me out on this?

Thanks!!!

Dan Katz

Posted: **Fri Apr 24, 2009 9:49 pm**

Just to follow up on Dan K.'s reply

B17B as it came from the factory. ADF loop, gun blisters etc.

Partway modernized?
ADF football, updated waist windows, but the same radio room and lower gun blisters

And all the way modernized as 8211 was with lower gun tub, updated radio room hatch, updated waist windows etc

And as long as we're talking about it. Two questions. First is this a B17C or is it a modernized B? Looks to have the cutout mentioned in another post for the updated waist windows and the intake on engine 1 looks B17B style.

Finally can someone tell me a bit about prewar squadron and group markings? It appears the above birds is 88 recon, and plane ID 1. The below is 7th BG, plane number 55. Where did the serial number appear? Would any of the squadrons of the BG have the BG marking or would they have squadron markings like the 88 recon bird? Or because the 88th was attached to the 7th it retained the 88th squadron marking? Yeah I know, it's obsessive

Posted: **Sat Apr 25, 2009 12:57 am**

Dan, Guys,

I just went over the 8 Aircraft Record Cards I have and here's the thing: Aircraft that definitely went to Boeing for total rework are listed in the aircraft record card as having gone there, usually July 1941, redelivered anywhere between August 2 and August 21, 1941.

From the Record Cards I DO have, they are:

38-212, to Boeing 7-15-41, then back to MacDill 8-14-41
38-269, to Boeing 7-15-41, then back to MacDill 8-14-41
38-270, to Boeing 7-15-41, then back to Langley 8-10-41
39-003, to Boeing, then back to Westover 8-14-41

BUT -- Aircraft that we DO NOT KNOW FOR SURE HAVE BELLY BATHTUBS
but may be like that intermediate modernization of 38-215 that you have illustrated MAY BE THE AIRCRAFT THAT ARE LISTED AS "MODERNIZED" IN THE AIRCRAFT RECORD CARD:

Aircraft listed as "MODERNIZED" include(again from the Record Cards I DO HAVE):

38-259, to San Antonio Army Air Depot (S.A.A.D.) 7-14-41, MODERNIZED
then back to Langley 8-12-41
39-001, to S.A.A.D. 7-24-41, back to Westover 8-19-41, MODERNIZED
39-007, to S.A.A.D. 7-14-41, back to Langley 8-12-41, MODERNIZED
38-269, to S.A.A.D. 7-25-41, then back to Wright 8-12-41, MODERNIZED

Please note that I have seen NO PHOTOGRAPHIC EVIDENCE THAT 39-001 EVER GOT A BELLY "BATHTUB."

I believe that this means that "MODERNIZED" means "waists, ADF, and possibly nose, upgraded."

But I also believe this meant that the belly "blister" was NOT being upgraded to a "bathtub."

I further believe that this meant that the radio room upper gun positiion "blister" was NOT being upgraded to the smooth B-17C and B-17D removable window upper radio room gun position, at least on some of the B-17B aircraft that may have been listed as "MODERNIZED."

Re the aircraft data block:
The USAAC Serial Number Information was printed underneath the third, rearmost, nose side square window on the left-hand side, at least on B-17C aircraft in metal finish as they left the factory (see photo, September 1974 Airpower, Pages 28-29), and I have no reason to question that it was there also on the B-17B.

Re BG IDs: This started out with the letter of the alphabet equal to the group number "BS"=19th BG, "BG"=7th BG, "PT"=20th Pursuit,
"AQ"=21st Attack, etc., and then, below that, then the Plane-in-group Number.
This changed sometime in 1940 to the simpler
55
7B, or the
28
14B of a B-17C based in Del Monte south of Clark Field, or
1
88R of that B-17B you posted a photo of, with the Squadron insignia on nose and just ahead of the waist positions, and thus it now went, such as the

27
15P on Taylor's P-40B/C vertical fin in black, with the large white "316" under the cockpit, and the

23
15P on Welch's P-40B/C vertical fin in black, with the large white "160" under the cockpit,

both aircraft having been temporarily based at Haleiwa, and so on.

PS - 1/88R is almost certainly a B-17B aircraft upgraded to C Standards, probably the Squadron CO's aircraft, possibly replacing the one in that ground lineup in 1940.

Oh, incidentally, if you notice, that photo of 38-211 was BEFORE it finally got a belly "bathtub" and, at the time of all these air-to-airs and ground shots, had a funny little thing sticking out maybe a foot in that bottom position.

Hope this all helps!

Regards,
Dan Katz

Posted: **Sat Apr 25, 2009 3:44 pm**

pokryshkin wrote:Between Tony Mireles' list, Dan Johnson's visuals from "Air Force" and his photos from "Hendricks Field-Prepare For Combat" and Col. Saavedra's list of aircraft at Hendricks before or during filming,
here is a possible list of the B-17B aircraft that WERE "MODERNIZED" by Boeing and redelivered in August, 1941, along with the first production aircraft, which was done at Wright Field:
(Numbers in quotes are Hendricks ID or "Air Force" fake ID or Lowery or other)
38-211 "8211""18" (the first airplane, done at Wright field)
38-212 "8212" (tail seen behind "9001" in Lowery Field 1943 photo)
38-213 (at Sebring/Hendricks June-August 1942)
38-216 "1"?(Cold Weather Testing, Alaska, crashed NV 1941)
38-219"8219" low on fin ("Mildred" photo 1942 Ephrata WA crash July 1942)
38-221 (Panama Command, crash 1942)
38-258
38-259 (at Sebring/Hendricks June-August 1942)
38-260 (at Sebring/Hendricks June-August 1942)
38-261"8261""07" (seen taxying out, flightline scenes, "Air Force")
38-262 (at Sebring, crash March, 1942)
38-268 (at Sebring/Hendricks June-August 1942)
38-269 (at Sebring/Hendricks June-August 1942)
38-270"8270""17" (Photo, Hendricks Field-Prepare for Combat)
38-583 (Crash list, USAAF Fatal Aviation Accidents, 1941-1945)
38-584"8584""10" ("05564""Mary-Ann" in "Air Force", Sebring, 6-8/1942)
39-001"9001""15" (behind John Garfield entering 8584, "Air Force")
(Lowery boneyard 1942 photo, Fortress In The Sky)
39-003 (at Sebring/Hendricks June-August 1942)
39-006"9006""04" (tail top photo, Hendricks Field-Prepare for Combat)
39-007 (at Sebring/Hendricks, June-August 1942)

I've asked Michael J. Lombardi, Boeing Historian, to double-check me on this.

Dan Katz

HOWEVER, this next clarification of the above information is what is now reasonably clear about both the "Modernization," and also the "rebuild to B-17C Standard," process as applied to the various individual B-17B aircraft:

B-17B aircraft that were sent to San Antonio Army Air Depot (SAAD), or whichever Army Air Depot was nearest to the base involved, (?) {This would be SAD [Sacramento Air Depot], MAD (Middletown Air Depot), HAD (Hawaiian Air Depot), NOAD (New Orleans Air Depot), or, even, MD (Materiel Depot=Wright Field). (please, again, someone check me out on this as applies to the various Individual Aircraft Record Cards) } were, generally, given flush waists and an ADF "football," during about the same time frame that Boeing was doing the complete makeover including belly "bathtub," received July 1941, redelivered, August 1941.

SOME of these partially-upgraded B-17B aircraft modified at San Antonio, or perhaps at other Air Depots, were also given the flush radio room upper gun position, as well as the .30 caliber nose ports.

These S.A.A.D.-modified aircraft had the typed annotation in the Individual Aircraft Record Card, "Modernized" or else the IARC had "MODERNIZED" stamped on a page.

Those aircraft remanufactured by Boeing were so listed in the I.A.R.C. as having gone there: "Boeing 7-25-41" and the next typed line on that page, would be the redelivery date to the originating military unit's home base: "Langley 8-14-41" or something similar.

I hope that those with Record Cards get a chance to read this, so that we can put together a list, supported by Tony Mireles' research and findings, of both aircraft fully modified by Boeing, and also those which only, like 38-215, have only the flush waists, along with the few that also had the radio room modification as well, all of these latter partial modification jobs done at San Antonio and/or other Air Depots.

This at least will clarify what those who have Aircraft Record Cards are reading, as far as the typed information goes.

I hope this is of help to those with access to these Individual Aircraft Record Cards.

Respectfully and hopefully,

Dan Katz

PS - Forum Name "Boeing 299" helped me out with this information.

Posted: **Sun Apr 26, 2009 5:54 pm**

pokryshkin wrote:Between Tony Mireles' list, Dan Johnson's visuals from "Air Force" and his photos from "Hendricks Field-Prepare For Combat" and Col. Saavedra's list of aircraft at Hendricks before or during filming,
here is a possible list of the B-17B aircraft that WERE "MODERNIZED" by Boeing and redelivered in August, 1941, along with the first production aircraft, which was done at Wright Field:
(Numbers in quotes are Hendricks ID or "Air Force" fake ID or Lowery or other)
38-211 "8211""18" (the first airplane, done at Wright field)
38-212 "8212" (tail seen behind "9001" in Lowery Field 1943 photo)
38-213 (at Sebring/Hendricks June-August 1942)
38-216 "1"?(Cold Weather Testing, Alaska, crashed NV 1941)
38-219"8219" low on fin ("Mildred" photo 1942 Ephrata WA crash July 1942)
38-221 (Panama Command, crash 1942)
38-258
38-259 (at Sebring/Hendricks June-August 1942)
38-260 (at Sebring/Hendricks June-August 1942)
38-261"8261""07" (seen taxying out, flightline scenes, "Air Force")
38-262 (at Sebring, crash March, 1942)
38-268 (at Sebring/Hendricks June-August 1942)
38-269 (at Sebring/Hendricks June-August 1942)
38-270"8270""17" (Photo, Hendricks Field-Prepare for Combat)
38-583 (Crash list, USAAF Fatal Aviation Accidents, 1941-1945)
38-584"8584""10" ("05564""Mary-Ann" in "Air Force", Sebring, 6-8/1942)
39-001"9001""15" (behind John Garfield entering 8584, "Air Force")
(Lowery boneyard 1942 photo, Fortress In The Sky)
39-003 (at Sebring/Hendricks June-August 1942)
39-006"9006""04" (tail top photo, Hendricks Field-Prepare for Combat)
39-007 (at Sebring/Hendricks, June-August 1942)

I've asked Michael J. Lombardi, Boeing Historian, to double-check me on this.

Dan Katz

NOW FOR THE MORE ACCURATE DATA:

The ONLY aircraft that we can ascertain as being DEFINITELY fully brought up to B-17C Standards are those that went to Boeing in July, 1941, AND this is , as of now, confirmed by the aircraft of which we have full fuselage photographs: SO FAR, this means 38-270 in the records I have available, and possibly 38-584 and 38-261, for which I DON'T have the IARC.
The problem with the 38-584 info posted to the "I got it!" forum does not indicate what happened to 38-584 between Westover Field, 11 June 1941, and Geiger Field, the day after Pearl Harbor.
There is a FURTHER problem with 38-584: She was sent to Sacramento Air Depot from Geiger on 12-23-41, and then BACK to Geiger on 1-18-42.
COULD SOME of these aircraft HAVE been fully upgraded AT THE AIR DEPOTS AFTER ALL?
IF the Individual Aircraft Record Cards for these other 2 match with the same page having first the typewritten entry "Boeing 7-??-41" and then the typewritten entry , implying the return to its unit by the entry, (original base) 8-??-41," THEN we can assume that, for example, 38-212, 38-269, and 39-003, which have these entries in their Individual Aircraft Record Card page, and SEEM to have the same modifications as 38-270, WOULD be FULLY MODIFIED.

At this point, It's unclear HOW to comprehensively identify which aircraft only got the flush waists, and which aircraft got the total package.

Regretfully and wonderingly,

Dan Katz

Posted: **Sun Apr 26, 2009 6:43 pm**

pokryshkin wrote:Between Tony Mireles' list, Dan Johnson's visuals from "Air Force" and his photos from "Hendricks Field-Prepare For Combat" and Col. Saavedra's list of aircraft at Hendricks before or during filming,
here is a possible list of the B-17B aircraft that WERE "MODERNIZED" by one aircraft depot or another, AND also includes those B-17B aircraft that were fully upgraded to B-17C Standard by Boeing all of which were redelivered in August, 1941, along with the first production aircraft, which was done at Wright Field:
(Numbers in quotes are Hendricks ID or "Air Force" fake ID or Lowery or other)
38-211 "8211""18" (the first airplane, done at Wright field)
38-212 "8212" (tail seen behind "9001" in Lowery Field 1943 photo)
38-213 (at Sebring/Hendricks June-August 1942)
38-216 "1"?(Cold Weather Testing, Alaska, crashed NV 1941)
38-218 "8218" low on fin ("Mildred" photo 1942 Ephrata WA crash July 1942)
38-221 (Panama Command, crash 1942)
38-258
38-259 (at Sebring/Hendricks June-August 1942)
38-260 (at Sebring/Hendricks June-August 1942)
38-261"8261""07" (seen taxying out, flightline scenes, "Air Force")
38-262 (at Sebring, crash March, 1942)
38-268 (at Sebring/Hendricks June-August 1942)
38-269 (at Sebring/Hendricks June-August 1942)
38-270"8270""17" (Photo, Hendricks Field-Prepare for Combat)
38-583 (Crash list, USAAF Fatal Aviation Accidents, 1941-1945)
38-584"8584""10" ("05564""Mary-Ann" in "Air Force", Sebring, 6-8/1942)
39-001"9001""15" (behind John Garfield entering 8584, "Air Force")
(Lowery boneyard 1942 photo, Fortress In The Sky)
39-003 (at Sebring/Hendricks June-August 1942)
39-006"9006""04" (tail top photo, Hendricks Field-Prepare for Combat)
39-007 (at Sebring/Hendricks, June-August 1942)

I've asked Michael J. Lombardi, Boeing Historian, to double-check me on this.

Dan Katz

Boy, did I get THIS wrong!

The ONLY aircraft that we can be certain of having the belly "bathtub" are those seen in photos and/or with the Boeing notation from July through August 1941. 38-211, was probably done at Wright Field, Materiel Development Command (thus MD 105).
At any rate, those either in clear photos or with the Boeing notation at this point are:
38-211 "18" in Air Force; photo in 9/74 Airpower Magazine with bathtub
38-212 "08?"photo Lowery IARCentry Boeing 7-14-41, MacDill 8-14-41
38-218, "Mildred" bathtub visible in photo Ephrata, Washington in '42
38-260 "02?" Boeing 7-15-41 return MacDill 8-14-41, means FULLY B-17C
38-261 "07" Boeing Stay, 7-15/8-10-41, AND bathtub clearly visible
38-270 "17" - bathtub IARC Entry:Boeing 7-15-41/Langley 8-10-41
38-584 "10" Boeing stay, 8-11/8-25-41 AND bathtub clearly visible
39-003 "16?" Boeing(no date), - Westover 8-14-41, means FULLY B-17C
39-006 "04" Boeing stay 7-15/8-19-41, plus photos=FULLY B-17C
3?-??? "05" photo in Sebring 10/42 book - clearly visible bathtub

Of the aircraft I either have illustrations of, or have IARCs of, the above aircraft meet the criteria AT THIS POINT (5/17/09\03:57AM EDT)

The other aircraft I have illustrations of either do not show a clear bathtub or show that the aircraft went to an Air Depot during the same time frame: TO the Air Depot in July, FROM the Air Depot, August, all in 1941;

I see no exceptions so far (and this from the data posted, extracted from the Individual Aircraft Record Card)

(Please forgive this questioning, Scott and Dik - no criticism intended - you are both the greatest supports for ALL this research!!)

Please advise.

Thank you VERY much!

Grateful and humbled regards,

Dan Katz

Posted: **Sun Apr 26, 2009 11:29 pm**

Dan,

Send me that PO Box or street address at my e-mail address and I'll get those images of the modified B-17B airplanes then you can look at the images against a known date (the accident date) and get a good idea about the extent of the modifications for individual aircraft.

Tony Mireles

Posted: **Mon Apr 27, 2009 12:27 am**

Dear Mr. Mireles,

Thank you very much for this kind and generous offer, which I WILL take you up on!

This may help pin down when and where these aircraft were, or had been, modified, and how complete of a job had been done.

With all these top detectives on the case, we'll get to the bottom of this yet!!

Posted: **Tue Apr 28, 2009 1:03 am**

I woke up about 30 minutes ago, and then it hit me: COULD that 2-day stay at Boeing from 9-11 June 1941 have been for the Belly Bathtub for 38-211, which ONLY NEEDED THE BATHTUB by that time anyway?

How long WOULD it have taken to install ONLY THE BATHTUB?

Now, I just need to prove the hypothesis.

Let's see what Boeing has to say on this...

Regards,

Dan Katz

PS - Reg Auckland of Aviation News Magazine wants to see the article.
Since I don't know how to get in touch with my first choice, Air and Space Smithsonian via email, it looks like Aviation News gets first refusal!

....stay tuned for the next exciting episode......!

Posted: **Fri May 08, 2009 2:04 am**

pokryshkin wrote:Between Tony Mireles' list, Dan Johnson's visuals from "Air Force" and his photos from "Hendricks Field-Prepare For Combat" and Col. Saavedra's list of aircraft at Hendricks before or during filming,
here is a possible list of the B-17B aircraft that WERE "MODERNIZED" by Boeing and redelivered in August, 1941, along with the first production aircraft, which was done at Wright Field:
(Numbers in quotes are Hendricks ID or "Air Force" fake ID or Lowery or other)
38-211 "8211""18" (the first airplane, done at Wright field)
38-212 "8212" (tail seen behind "9001" in Lowery Field 1943 photo)
38-213 (at Sebring/Hendricks June-August 1942)
38-216 "1"?(Cold Weather Testing, Alaska, crashed NV 1941)
38-218 "8218" low on fin ("Mildred" photo 1942 Ephrata WA crash July 1942)
38-219 "8219" crash in Ecuador, 1942
38-221 (Panama Command, crash 1942)
38-258
38-259 (at Sebring/Hendricks June-August 1942)
38-260 (at Sebring/Hendricks June-August 1942)
38-261"8261""07" (seen taxying out, flightline scenes, "Air Force")
38-262 (at Sebring, crash March, 1942)
38-268 (at Sebring/Hendricks June-August 1942)
38-269 (at Sebring/Hendricks June-August 1942)
38-270"8270""17" (Photo, Hendricks Field-Prepare for Combat)
38-583 (Crash list, USAAF Fatal Aviation Accidents, 1941-45)
38-584"8584""10" ("05564""Mary-Ann" in "Air Force", Sebring, 6-8/1942)
39-001"9001""15" (behind John Garfield entering 8584, "Air Force")
(Lowery boneyard 1942 photo, Fortress In The Sky)
39-003 (at Sebring/Hendricks June-August 1942)
39-006"9006""04" (tail top photo, Hendricks Field-Prepare for Combat)
39-007 (at Sebring/Hendricks, June-August 1942)

I've asked Michael J. Lombardi, Boeing Historian, to double-check me on this.

Dan Katz

Now for some mind-bending modifications to this list:
38-211 "18" DID have the complete "surgery" as we have seen.
38-212 "8212" in Lowery photo had a Boeing stay, 7-15/8-14-41.
38-213 " 12"(?) was at Sebring for filming, and apparently had top /sides
38-215 "1" had only the sides done, as had
38-216 "2" which also had only the sides done, from a pre-crash photo
38-218 "Mildred" had the complete job, as seen in the photo
38-219 Ecuador 1942 crash photos show bathtub
38-221, from the data, may have had only the waists, maybe radio too.
38-258, sans data - may only have had the waists -maybe radio
38-259, "12"? "Modernized" stamp had waists -and maybe radio- only.
38-260, "02?" Boeing,7/15-8/14-41, means complete B-17C upgrade.
38-261, "07" Boeing stay, 7-15/8-17-41+photo evidence B-17C upgrade.
38-269, "12"? "Modernized", means waists and possible radio room
38-270, "17" Boeing stay, 7-15/8-10-41,+photo evidence B-17C upgrade.
38-583, absent more info, only waists and maybe hatch
38-584, "10" Boeing 11-25 August 1941, obvious full B-17C upgrade.
39-001, "15", "Modernized", only waists/radio confirmed.....
39-003, "16?" Boeing, return Westover 8-14-41, likely full B-17C upgrade.
39-006, "04", Boeing 7-15/8-15-41,+photos=complete B-17C upgrade.
39-007, "12"?"Modernized" means waists, possibly radio window also.
3?-???, "08"
3?-???, "05"
INCLUDING 38-211, this makes 20 aircraft that were upgraded to at least some degree!!!

These are the machines that were upgraded to whatever degree could be done to each at that time with whatever was available.

This means that the CURRENTLY KNOWN COMPLETELY upgraded aircraft were:
38-211 "18"
38-212 "05?"
38-218
38-219
38-260 "08?"
38-261 "07"
38-270 "17"
38-584 "10"
39-003 "16?"
39-006 "04"

making a total of 10 aircraft that, either from the visual evidence, or from the fact of only having the Boeing entry and exit dates, AND NOT the "Modernization" stamp, had the complete job, including
"bathtub."
It only requires two other aircraft, that were fully modernized, that would give the 9 required aircraft for those formation scenes - and also with maybe B-17D 40-3065. ("02?") for the 9-aircraft formation shots?

Also in the film were:39-001 "15" which must have looked exactly like "12",(which could have been 39-007), which still had the belly "blister."

(38-218 and 38-219 were never at Sebring)

Please advise

Thank you!!!!

Dan Katz

Posted: **Sun May 17, 2009 1:35 am**

pokryshkin wrote:
pokryshkin wrote:Between Tony Mireles' list, Dan Johnson's visuals from "Air Force" and his photos from "Hendricks Field-Prepare For Combat" and Col. Saavedra's list of aircraft at Hendricks before or during filming,
here is a possible list of the B-17B aircraft that WERE "MODERNIZED" by Air Depots or had a stay at Boeing all of which were redelivered in August, 1941, along with the first production aircraft, which was done at Wright Field:
(Numbers in quotes are Hendricks ID or "Air Force" fake ID or Lowery or other)
38-211 "8211""18" (the first airplane, done at Wright field)
38-212 "8212" (tail seen behind "9001" in Lowery Field 1943 photo)
38-213 (at Sebring/Hendricks June-August 1942)
38-216 "1"?(Cold Weather Testing, Alaska, crashed NV 1941)
38-218 "8218" low on fin ("Mildred" photo 1942 Ephrata WA crash July 1942)
38-219 "8219" crash in Ecuador, 1942
38-221 (Panama Command, crash 1942)
38-258
38-259 (at Sebring/Hendricks June-August 1942)
38-260"8260""05?"(at Sebring/Hendricks June-August 1942)
38-261"8261""07" (seen taxying out, flightline scenes, "Air Force")
38-262 (at Sebring, crash March, 1942)
38-268 (at Sebring/Hendricks June-August 1942)
38-269 (at Sebring/Hendricks June-August 1942)
38-270"8270""17" (Photo, Hendricks Field-Prepare for Combat)
38-583 (Crash list, USAAF Fatal Aviation Accidents, 1941-1945)
38-584"8584""10" ("05564""Mary-Ann" in "Air Force", Sebring, 6-8/1942)
39-001"9001""15" (behind John Garfield entering 8584, "Air Force")
(Lowery boneyard 1942 photo, Fortress In The Sky)
39-003 (at Sebring/Hendricks June-August 1942)
39-006"9006""04" (tail top photo, Hendricks Field-Prepare for Combat)
39-007 (at Sebring/Hendricks, June-August 1942)

I've asked Michael J. Lombardi, Boeing Historian, to double-check me on this.

Dan Katz
Now for some mind-bending modifications to this list:
38-211 "18" DID have the complete "surgery" as we have seen.
38-212 "8212" in Lowery photo had a Boeing stay, 7-15/8-14-41.
38-213 " 12"(?) was at Sebring for filming, and apparently had top /sides
38-215 "1" had only the sides done, as had
38-216 "2" which also had only the sides done, from a pre-crash photo
38-218 "Mildred" had the complete job, as seen in the photo
38-221, from the data, may have had only the waists, maybe radio too.
38-258, sans data - may only have had the waists -maybe radio
38-259, "12"? "Modernized" stamp had waists -and maybe radio- only.
38-260, Boeing stay,7/15-8/14-41, means complete B-17C upgrade.
38-261, "07" Boeing stay, 7-15/8-17-41+photo evidence B-17C upgrade.
38-269, "12"? "Modernized", means waists and possible radio room
38-270, "17" Boeing stay, 7-15/8-10-41,+photo evidence B-17C upgrade.
38-583, absent more info, only waists and maybe hatch
38-584, "10" Boeing 11-25 August 1941, obvious full B-17C upgrade.
39-001, "15", "Modernized", only waists/radio confirmed.....
39-003, Boeing, then to Westover 8-14-41, likely full B-17C upgrade.
39-006, "04", Boeing 7-15/8-15-41,+photos=complete B-17C upgrade.
39-007, "12"?"Modernized" means waists, possibly radio window also.

INCLUDING 38-211, this makes 19 aircraft!!!

These are the machines that were upgraded to whatever degree could be done to each at that time with whatever was available.

This means that the KNOWN COMPLETELY upgraded aircraft were:
38-211 "18"
38-212 "05?"
38-218
38-219
38-260 "08?"
38-261 "07"
38-270 "17"
38-584 "10"
39-003 "16?"
39-006 "04"

making a total of 9 aircraft that, either from the visual evidence, or from the fact of only having the Boeing entry and exit dates, WITHOUT the "Modernization" stamp, had the complete job, including
"bathtub."
It only requires one other aircraft, that was fully modernized, that would give 9 required aircraft for those formation scenes - and also with maybe B-17D 40-3065. ("02?") for the 9-aircraft formation shots?

Also in the film were:39-001 "15" which must have looked exactly like "12",(which could have been 39-007). Both of which still have the belly "blister."

(38-218 was never at Sebring)

Please advise

Thank you!!!!

Dan Katz

OK, here we go again!

The B-17B aircraft with Boeing stays where they have been photographed, ALL have bathtubs!

These aircraft are:
38-211 "18" THIS ONE WAS DONE AT WRIGHT FIELD
38-218 "Mildred" seen at Ephrata, Washington, 1942, full B-17 bathtub job
38-219 Ecuador September 1942 crash photos indicate bathtub.
38-261 "07" Boeing stay, +movie shows full B-17C upgrade with bathtub
38-270 "17" Boeing stay + photo shows full B-17C upgrade with bathtub
38-584 "10" Boeing stay + movie shows full B-17C upgrade and bathtub
39-006 "04" Boeing stay + crash photos show B-17C upgrade and bathtub

Other aircraft, for which I have no photos to show the bathtub, but which DID have Boeing stays, are:
38-212 "05?"
38-260 "08?"
39-003 "16?"

Aircraft which DID have the "Modernized" stamp or typewritten entry meaning flush waists and/or radio room were:
39-001
39-007

Posted: **Wed May 20, 2009 7:37 am**

pokryshkin wrote:
pokryshkin wrote:Between Tony Mireles' list, Dan Johnson's visuals from "Air Force" and his photos from "Hendricks Field-Prepare For Combat" and Col. Saavedra's list of aircraft at Hendricks before or during filming,
here is a possible list of the B-17B aircraft that WERE "MODERNIZED" by Boeing and redelivered in August, 1941, along with the first production aircraft, which was done at Wright Field:
(Numbers in quotes are Hendricks ID or "Air Force" fake ID or Lowery or other)
38-211 "8211""18" (the first airplane, done at Wright field)
38-212 "8212" (tail seen behind "9001" in Lowery Field 1943 photo)
38-213 (at Sebring/Hendricks June-August 1942)
38-216 "1"?(Cold Weather Testing, Alaska, crashed NV 1941)
38-218 "8218" low on fin ("Mildred" photo 1942 Ephrata WA crash July 1942)
38-219 "8219" crash in Ecuador, 1942
38-221 (Panama Command, crash 1942)
38-258
38-259 (at Sebring/Hendricks June-August 1942)
38-260 (at Sebring/Hendricks June-August 1942)
38-261"8261""07" (seen taxying out, flightline scenes, "Air Force")
38-262 (at Sebring, crash March, 1942)
38-268 (at Sebring/Hendricks June-August 1942)
38-269 (at Sebring/Hendricks June-August 1942)
38-270"8270""17" (Photo, Hendricks Field-Prepare for Combat)
38-583 (Crash list, USAAF Fatal Aviation Accidents, 1941-1945)
38-584"8584""10" ("05564""Mary-Ann" in "Air Force", Sebring, 6-8/1942)
39-001"9001""15" (behind John Garfield entering 8584, "Air Force")
(Lowery boneyard 1942 photo, Fortress In The Sky)
39-003 (at Sebring/Hendricks June-August 1942)
39-006"9006""04" (tail top photo, Hendricks Field-Prepare for Combat)
39-007 (at Sebring/Hendricks, June-August 1942)

I've asked Michael J. Lombardi, Boeing Historian, to double-check me on this.

Dan Katz
Now for some mind-bending modifications to this list:
38-211 "18" DID have the complete "surgery" as we have seen.
38-212 "8212" in Lowery photo had a Boeing stay, 7-15/8-14-41.
38-213 " 12"(?) was at Sebring for filming, and apparently had top /sides
38-215 "1" had only the sides done, as had
38-216 "2" which also had only the sides done, from a pre-crash photo
38-218 "Mildred" had the complete job, as seen in the photo
38-221, from the data, may have had only the waists, maybe radio too.
38-258, sans data - may only have had the waists -maybe radio
38-259, "12"? "Modernized" stamp had waists -and maybe radio- only.
38-260, "02?"Boeing, 7/15-8/14-41, means complete B-17C upgrade.
38-261, "07" Boeing stay, 7-15/8-17-41+photo evidence B-17C upgrade.
38-269, "12"? "Modernized", means waists and possible radio room
38-270, "17" Boeing stay, 7-15/8-10-41,+photo evidence B-17C upgrade.
38-583, absent more info, only waists and maybe hatch
38-584, "10" Boeing 11-25 August 1941, obvious full B-17C upgrade.
39-001, "15", "Modernized", only waists/radio confirmed.....
39-003, "08?" Boeing, return Westover 8-14-41, likely full B-17C upgrade.
39-006, "04", Boeing 7-15/8-15-41,+photos=complete B-17C upgrade.
39-007, "12"?"Modernized" means waists, possibly radio window also.

INCLUDING 38-211, this makes 19 aircraf: 9 complete, (with 10 to locate), and 10 partial, upgrade/modernizations!!!

These are the machines that were upgraded to whatever degree could be done to each at that time with whatever was available.

This means that the KNOWN COMPLETELY upgraded aircraft were:
38-211 "18"
38-212 "05?"
38-218
38-219
38-260 "08?"
38-261 "07"
38-270 "17"
38-584 "10"
39-003 "16?"
39-006 "04"

making a total of 10 fully upgrade aircraft that, either from the visual evidence, or from the fact of only having the Boeing entry and exit dates, WITHOUT the "Modernization" stamp, had the complete job, including "bathtub."
It only requires two other aircraft, that were fully modernized, that would give 9 required aircraft for those formation scenes - and also with maybe B-17D 40-3065. ("02?") for the 9-aircraft formation shots?

Also in the film were:39-001 "15" which must have looked exactly like "12",(which could have been 39-007). Both of which still have the belly "blister."

(38-218 and 38-219 were never at Sebring)

Please advise

Thank you!!!!

Dan Katz

Posted: **Wed May 20, 2009 11:10 pm**

pokryshkin wrote:
pokryshkin wrote:
pokryshkin wrote:Between Tony Mireles' list, Dan Johnson's visuals from "Air Force" and his photos from "Hendricks Field-Prepare For Combat" and Col. Saavedra's list of aircraft at Hendricks before or during filming,
here is a possible list of the B-17B aircraft that WERE "MODERNIZED" by Boeing and redelivered in August, 1941, along with the first production aircraft, which was done at Wright Field:
(Numbers in quotes are Hendricks ID or "Air Force" fake ID or Lowery or other)
38-211 "8211""18" (the first airplane, done at Wright field)
38-212 "8212" (tail seen behind "9001" in Lowery Field 1943 photo)
38-213 (at Sebring/Hendricks June-August 1942)
38-216 "1"?(Cold Weather Testing, Alaska, crashed NV 1941)
38-218 "8218" low on fin ("Mildred" photo 1942 Ephrata WA crash July 1942)
38-219 "8219" crash in Ecuador, 1942
38-221 (Panama Command, crash 1942)
38-258
38-259 (at Sebring/Hendricks June-August 1942)
38-260 (at Sebring/Hendricks June-August 1942)
38-261"8261""07" (seen taxying out, flightline scenes, "Air Force")
38-262 (at Sebring, crash March, 1942)
38-268 (at Sebring/Hendricks June-August 1942)
38-269 (at Sebring/Hendricks June-August 1942)
38-270"8270""17" (Photo, Hendricks Field-Prepare for Combat)
38-583 (Crash list, USAAF Fatal Aviation Accidents, 1941-1945)
38-584"8584""10" ("05564""Mary-Ann" in "Air Force", Sebring, 6-8/1942)
39-001"9001""15" (behind John Garfield entering 8584, "Air Force")
(Lowery boneyard 1942 photo, Fortress In The Sky)
39-003 (at Sebring/Hendricks June-August 1942)
39-006"9006""04" (tail top photo, Hendricks Field-Prepare for Combat)
39-007 (at Sebring/Hendricks, June-August 1942)

I've asked Michael J. Lombardi, Boeing Historian, to double-check me on this.

Dan Katz
Now for some mind-bending modifications to this list:
38-211 "18" DID have the complete "surgery" as we have seen.
38-212 "8212" in Lowery photo had a Boeing stay, 7-15/8-14-41.
38-213 " 12"(?) was at Sebring for filming, and apparently had top /sides
38-215 "1" had only the sides done, as had
38-216 "2" which also had only the sides done, from a pre-crash photo
38-218 "Mildred" had the complete job, as seen in the photo
38-221, from the data, may have had only the waists, maybe radio too.
38-258, sans data - may only have had the waists -maybe radio
38-259, "12"? "Modernized" stamp had waists -and maybe radio- only.
38-260, "02?"Boeing, 7/15-8/14-41, means complete B-17C upgrade.
38-261, "07" Boeing stay, 7-15/8-17-41+photo evidence B-17C upgrade.
38-269, "12"? "Modernized", means waists and possible radio room
38-270, "17" Boeing stay, 7-15/8-10-41,+photo evidence B-17C upgrade.
38-583, absent more info, only waists and maybe hatch
38-584, "10" Boeing 11-25 August 1941, obvious full B-17C upgrade.
39-001, "15", "Modernized", only waists/radio confirmed.....
39-003, "08?" Boeing, return Westover 8-14-41, likely full B-17C upgrade.
39-006, "04", Boeing 7-15/8-15-41,+photos=complete B-17C upgrade.
39-007, "12"?"Modernized" means waists, possibly radio window also.

INCLUDING 38-211, this makes 19 aircraf: 9 complete, (with 10 to locate), and 10 partial, upgrade/modernizations!!!

These are the machines that were upgraded to whatever degree could be done to each at that time with whatever was available.

This means that the KNOWN COMPLETELY upgraded aircraft were:
38-211 "18"
38-212 "05?"
38-218
38-219
38-260 "08?"
38-261 "07"
38-270 "17"
38-584 "10"
39-003 "16?"
39-006 "04"

making a total of 10 fully upgrade aircraft that, either from the visual evidence, or from the fact of only having the Boeing entry and exit dates, WITHOUT the "Modernization" stamp, had the complete job, including "bathtub."
It only requires two other aircraft, that were fully modernized, that would give 9 required aircraft for those formation scenes - and also with maybe B-17D 40-3065. ("02?") for the 9-aircraft formation shots?

Also in the film were:39-001 "15" which must have looked exactly like "12",(which could have been 39-007). Both of which still have the belly "blister."

(38-218 and 38-219 were never at Sebring)

Please advise

Thank you!!!!

Dan Katz

With timely help from Dik Shepherd's IARC holdings, here are the latest results of aircraft modernized, either completely at Boeing, or else partially, (flush waists, nose[gun mounts+ADF "football)or even imcompletely upgraded,(+radio room) at San Antonio Air Depot:
38-211 "18" completely done at Wright Field
38-212 Boeing, 7-15/8-14-41 likely full B-17C Standard upgrade
38-213 crash photos=flush waists+radio, on bathtub?
38-214 ?
38-215 "1" San Antonio Air Depot, 8-04/8-14-41 "Modernized" waists
38-216 "2" Flush waists only - photo
38-217 S.A.A.D. 6-28/9-27-41 "On Temporary Loan" - to train modifiers?
38-218 "Mildred" photo shows complete B-17C upgrade
38-219 crash photo Ecuador=flush waists/radio, rests on bathtub
38-220 S.A.A.D. 7-30/8-20-41
38-221 S..A.A.D. 7-30/8-19-41 "Modernized"
38-222 ?
38-223 ?
38-258 S.A.A.D. 3-14/25-42, Check IARC for July-August 1941???
38-259 "12?" S.A.A.D. 7-14/8-12-41 "Modernized"waist/radio crash photos
38-260 "02?" Boeing 7-15/8-14/41, LIKELY full B-17C upgrade
38-261 "07" Boeing 7-25/8-17-41 full B-17C upgrade seen in Air Force/i]
38-262 S.A.A.D. 7-14/8-12-41 "Modernized"
38-263 ?
38-264 ?
38-265 ?
38-266 ?
38-267 ?
38-268 ?
38-269 Wright Field 1-19-40, S.A.A.D. 7-25/8-12-41
38-270 "17" Boeing 7-15/8-10-41, Full B-17C Standard=Hendricks photo
38-583 ?
38-584 "10" Boeing 8-11/25-41, full B-17C upgrade seen inAir Force
38-610 S.A.A.D. 7-14/8-12-41 "Modernized"
39-001 "15" S.A.A.D. 7-25/8-19-41 "Modernzied" waists/radio in photo
39-002 ?
39-003 "05?" Boeing, return to Westover 8-14-41, likely full B-17C
39-004 S.A.A.D. 7-27/8-26-41
39-005 ?
39-006 "04" Boeing 7-15/8-15-41 crash photos=waists/radio/on bathtub
39-007 "12?" S.A.A.D. 7-14/8-12-41 "Modernized"
39-008 S.A.A.D. 7-14/8-12-41 "Modernized"
39-009 S.A.A.D. 7-14/8-12-41 "Modernized"
39-010 ?

This is the most complete record I have available as of 01:43 EDT, 21 May 2009.
The CURRENT AVAILABLE informations breaks down thus:

Done at Wright Field: 38-211,

Done at Boeing, or likely done at Boeing, with full B-17C upgrade:
38-212, 38-218, 38-260, 38-261, 38-270, 38-584, 39-003, 39-006, for a currently known total of 8 B-17C-Standard aircraft, plus 38-211.

Done at San Antonio Air Depot, with only waists:
38-215, 38-216

Done at San Antonio, waists AND radio:
38-213, 38-219, 38-259, 38-262, 38-269, 38-610, 39-001, 39-004,
39-007, 39-008, 39-009, for a known total of 11 partially upgraded aircraft, photos if 38-219, 38-269, 39-001, all show flush waists AND radio positons.

STILL UNKNOWN:
38-214, 38-222. 38-223, 38-263, 38-264, 38-265, 38-266, 38-267, 38-268,
38-583, 39-002, 39-005, 39-010, for a total of 13 aircraft which may, or may not, have been upgraded, either totally or partially.

Respectfully submitted,

Dennis L. "Dan" Katz

Aero Vintage Books

Possible Final list of "MODERNIZED" B-17B aircraft

Possible Final list of "MODERNIZED" B-17B aircraft

Possible Final List of "Modernized" B-17B aircraft

Possible Final List of "Modernized" B-17Bs

Re: Possible Final list of "MODERNIZED" B-17B airc

Re: Possible Final list of "MODERNIZED" B-17B airc

Re: Possible Final list of "MODERNIZED" B-17B airc

Possible Final List of Modernized B-17Bs

Possible Final List...

Re: Possible Final list of "MODERNIZED" B-17B airc

Re: Possible Final list of "MODERNIZED" B-17B airc

Re: Possible Final list of "MODERNIZED" B-17B airc

Re: Possible Final list of "MODERNIZED" B-17B airc