Help Identifying Pacific B-17

[390bg]

A friend of mine's father was a B-17 Navigator in the Pacific. He is trying to find the serial number for a B-17F named "P D, Off Jr", Donald Duck nose art. The pilot's name was Guy Townsend, who went on to have a long post-war career in the USAF. His father's name was Guy Trapp. According to the information he has, they were assigned to fly Gen. Twining. Any info would be appreciated.

Dick Trapp.jpg

[Steve Birdsall]

The serial number is 41-24446, previously Jezabel with the 11th Bomb Group, and later the 5th. Used as a personal transport by General Nathan F. Twining and returned to U.S. Written off after a landing accident in Florida on October 7, 1944.

[390bg]

Many thanks Steve _ this is Frank Drain (Dick Drain’s son). Will pass this info along to my friend.

[Steve Birdsall]

Hi Frank – when I saw “390bg” I thought it might be you. Here's the best photo I have of 41-24446, courtesy of Mike Claringbould. It was an oddball, I think the only B-17F I’ve ever seen fitted with B-17E props.



There’s also some interesting newsreel footage here: https://www.criticalpast.com/video/6567 ... g-in-jeeps

[Chris Brame]

And here too; this one shows the serial on the fin:
https://www.criticalpast.com/video/6567 ... 5-Mitchell

[390bg]

Thanks for all the great information - will pass this along to Dick Trapp next week.

Frank

[varsity07840]

I've always wondered why, given the the innovative modifications made to other pacific AAF bombers, the B-17Fs were never modified to replace the .30 cal nose guns with .50 cal as was done with their B-17Es, and the B-17Fs in the 8th AF in Europe. The Memphis Belle being a perfect 8th AF example.

[terveurn]

I've always wondered why, given the the innovative modifications made to other pacific AAF bombers, the B-17Fs were never modified to replace the .30 cal nose guns with .50 cal as was done with their B-17Es, and the B-17Fs in the 8th AF in Europe. The Memphis Belle being a perfect 8th AF example.

There was several pacific based B-17's with .50 nose modes - for example " the Last Straw " however, the first year of the Pacific War, the Japanese had a hard time with the B-17 (as well as other "Fast" bombers" ) and unlike the Luftwaffe, the Japanese took a long time to develop front attacks. By the time the Japanese figured-out to hit the bombers effectively, the B-17 was pretty much replaced with the B-24.

Even in Europe, frontal attacks were considered dangerous to the attacking fighters, one miscalculation and you end-up running into the target plus you had a much smaller target vs beam or tail end attacks with presented the broad expense of the wing to hit.

Last Straw.JPG

[varsity07840]

With all due respect, I have to disagree with you premise regarding Japanese head on attacks. As early as the Java campaign it was evident that the Japanese were using head on attacks. Many of the 19th Bomb Groups B-17Es had .50 cal nose guns installed to address this problem as it was obvious that the single .30 cal. gun was too light.There didn't seem to have been any standard modification. Some were single mounts, others twin. .50 cal cheek guns were also often added.The same was true for 5th and 11th BG B-17Es as well as the 43rd. The B-17Fs that arrived in theater were early versions with depot modified enlarged cheek windows with .50 cal guns and .30 cal guns in the frameless nose. My guess is that the F models were not modified for .50 cal nose guns because the work involved in producing and installing the bracing needed for the frameless nose would have kept badly need a/c off line for too long a time. When B-24Ds arrived they had a Hawaii Air Depot additional .50 in the upper part of the nose to supplement the one in the lower nose and two cheek guns. The head on threat soon led to the nose turret modification.

[Dennis56]

Based on my reading (Fortress Against The Sun, and Samurai) and the accounts in both books, I have to agree with "varsity" on this. Not to mention the many pictures that show the .50 mounted in the lower right of the nose.
Now MY question: I always thought the F model WAS fitted with a .50 in the glass nose and a framework was fitted inside the different plexiglass nose ot support he gun. Am I missing something here? Dennis

[Steve Birdsall]

Some 5th Air Force B-17Fs were fitted with B-17E nose glazing and at least one of them, 41-24548 Harry the Horse, ultimately mounted a .50-cal in a reinforced arrangement that may have traced back to the 19th Bomb Group. Then there were 41-24353 Cap'n & The Kids and 41-24521 Black Jack with the fixed .50-cal nose gun. However, those three seem to be the only exceptions (as far as I know).

[varsity07840]

Based on my reading (Fortress Against The Sun, and Samurai) and the accounts in both books, I have to agree with "varsity" on this. Not to mention the many pictures that show the .50 mounted in the lower right of the nose.
Now MY question: I always thought the F model WAS fitted with a .50 in the glass nose and a framework was fitted inside the different plexiglass nose ot support he gun. Am I missing something here? Dennis

A single .50 in the nose with the framework you describe became the standard nose gun arrangement for F models in the 8th and 15th AFs. Togglier ships often had twin guns a slab of armor in front of the gunner in lieu of the bombsight.

[Dennis56]

Thank you both for this information. There is much that I don't know, and probably never will. A little here and a little there. I would have thought, and did, that BOEING was putting the flexible guns and framework in ALL F models, but now I know otherwise. Same with the F models using the E type nose glass. My preference would be for D and C models, but E's fit in there too. My main interest and admiration is for the planes and crews that fought against the odds in the early Pacific theater. This interest is also partly responsible for my NOT taking advantage of the opportunities I had to actually fly in B-17s (including the rare opportunity to fly left seat in "Aluminum Overcast" when it was offered), because I was holding out for a flying E. That, time, and money, but I could have come up with the last two. I have to learn to better appreciate what we have. Dennis