B-17G "BXH" at Albertus Airport, Illinois, June 1947

[aerovin2]

Deserves it's own topic:

Parked at Albertus Airport, Freeport, IL, in July 1947:

Surplus from Walnut Ridge. Went to the local Air Scouts in June 1946. Disposition unknown.



Looking for any clues from you trainer experts.

[aerovin2]

Hmmm...interesting:

96th BG, 338 BS used the "BX" code and here is one similarly marked:

[jmkendall]

maybe 338th bs survivor

bxh 338th.jpg

[jmkendall]

BX is the code for the 338th BS. Um...did we just find "5 Grand"????? Didn't one of the news articles talk about going to Seattle? I should probably re-read before saying anything but this is kind of exciting. Especially since we have a report that it might have been buried.

[aerovin2]

Hmmm...interesting:

96th BG, 338 BS used the "BX" code and here is one similarly marked:



Interesting that 5-Grand was BX-H and similarly marked, but obviously this is not 5-Grand.

[aerovin2]

Maybe not so obviously...but does not add up as 5-Grand reportedly did go to Kingman and this airplane reportedly came out of Walnut Ridge. But very interesting nonetheless. 5-Grand was supposedly BX-H beginning in July 1944 but a photo at Kingman prior to scrapping shows the markings don't really match. It looks like a faded "C" overpaints the old BXH markings and the U.S. insignia is faded away. Doubtful but intriguing.

[jmkendall]

This is perplexing:

bxh2.jpg

She left Europe after VJ day, not doubt of that. Pics of her in Kingman show she was still marked BXH. From the HIstory of the 338th, it is evident that she left with the rest of the Squadron. Meaning there would be absolutely no need for a second aircraft to take her squadron markings.

Since she is known to be the only AC marked this way within that squadron...it just seems that unless someone has proof to the contrary, this is "5 Grand". I conceed that from this photo of Scotts, that I can't see the markings on the nose. But I can see color on the Vert stab. The article does say Walnut Ridge, but honestly, who knows where the reporter got that from. Not like they got all their stories right. Second, Walnut ridge was the center for trainers, and this was an obvious combat vet. IF it had been an earlier ac that "5 grand" took over from, we would expect to see it's combat markings marked out and changed to trainer codes...if any ac that had to be superceeded was in good enough condition to be flow back to Conus.

And if this ac was "5 Grands" replacement...after the entire Squadron transitioned back to Conus...I just dont' see them putting in the time and money to paint it in it's combat scheme for a group that disbanded shortly after VJ day. Especially when the squadrons other AC were in Kingman.

None of it makes any sense but occams razor says this is "5 grand" barring any other evidence. Which I would willing conceed, if we can get a good enough picture.

[jmkendall]

That wasn't the photo I planed to show:

bxh3.jpg

This was the photo Scott was talking about.

Could "C" simply have been an inventory code? It does look much newer than anything else and it would have had to be applied after coming back to conus anyway....

From it's wartime service:

bxh4.jpg

Fun!

[aerovin2]

Well, I think we have a bigger mystery on our hands now. The article is very specific about the B-17 coming from Walnut Ridge. The photo's markings are pretty clear, too, as for the "BXH" but all the 5-Grand photos it was very faded, almost indistinguishable.

We know pretty conclusively that 5-Grand was at Kingman. David Gansz's definitive B-17 Production has a very specific record of 5-Grand that says it flew with the 96th BG/338th BS through May 1945 as "BX-H" and then, in May 1945, was assigned to the 388th BG for the flight back to the U.S. Tail marking was not changed but "C" was added as the fuselage code. The airplane was back in the U.S. on June 14, 1945. After being at Seattle and South Plains, it went to Kingman and all the photos of the airplane at Kingman back that up.

I don't think we will have an answer until a photo of the B-17 at Albertus Airport shows up. You would sure think one is available somewhere. I'm going to do a bit more digging...

[jmkendall]

Now we know where the "C" code came from and some additional information on her return.

As for the reportage of coming from Walnut Ridge. Two things come to mind. The first was that another B-17 had flown into a nearby town..but was that before or after this one? If before then the local news ace, having read THAT report, just assumed it was also from Walnut Ridge..or maybe saw the newsreel on Walnut ridge. The other thought is a crime report I took on a fatal hit and run. I had 34 eyewitness reports that the perpatrator was driving a black Honda. I had ONE person report that the vehicle was a silver mustang. In the end it was the silver mustang.

People get things wrong, especially me! While I realize we only have the four corners of the news reports to gather evidence from....sometimes those articles are wrong. Look at the reportage of the Lacy B-17 ( the original reportage from 194..6?)

Unfortunately we have no clear port side pics from her time at Kingman. We have no idea if the port side had been repainted at anytime after the initial painting, or if the suns effects were less sever ( morning sun vs evening sun).

I do agree that the pics at Kingman showing the props being off, are a bit damning, but we all know those could just as easily be put back on.

Didn't the news report say the crew took four days to get thier ac ready for a ferry flight? Why four days? When I did all that research on Walnut Ridge and the Educational donations, I read report after report where pilots basically just came down by themselves; do a preflight and flyaway. One ferry pilot reported that he made a lot of money ferrying ac from Walnut ridge and if the AC he chose had problems they just found a better one.

So....what made the one they chose so special that two mechanics had to work four days on her to get her ready to fly?

I think if we could nail down a definitive last date that 5g was photographed at Kingman and a definitive date from your photograph, that might help. if 5g is definitively shown to still be in Kingman when the Albertus bird is definitively known to be at Rockbridge, then we have an answer. If all we have are approximations then......

I mean...hell Scott I published a pic of Sentimental Journey right here on this forum and a bunch of people told me my dates on it were wrong...my dates...of my photo. The only problem? I was in the Army and in AIT in Alabama when they told me I MUST have taken that pic.....lmao

See Scott! You should have published this pic earlier! What a blast

Thanks!!!

[aerovin2]

Just to clarify...the article says they took four hours...

There is a photo at Kingman showing the left side...looks pretty much as faded as the right side with "C' fairly prominent and insignia darkened...possibly painted over. That is seen in Winged Majesty (1980) with Frederick Johnson putting together the bit on 5-Grand.

It is a fun little research job...I did email the manager of the Albertus airport looking for a photo. I only had a half-dozen other things to do tonight that remain undone...oh well.

And I did update the B-17 RFC page with four more airplanes.

[terveurn]

Can I play.....

Several points, 96th BG records pretty much are junk -- a lot of unknown aircraft vs identifications.

What is known 100% from 5-Grand's card is she definitely went to Kingman (those who know my books, also know I went to the original records for al my information).

What is also well documented is that when the high time combat ships were sent to Kingman, batteries were removed and the flight control cables were cut - making them pretty much permanently grounded

What is also known that a lot of the non-Boeing ships went to Walnut Ridge instead of Kingman - from Bits and pieces, you have:

42-97758 (BX * ?)
42-97966 (BX * S)
44-8213 (BX * M)
44-8370 (BX * ?)
44-8555 (BX * ?)
44-8911 (BX * ?)

So 4 unknowns for the 338th BS


Would they have repainted the markings on 5-Grand, I would say no, most people / organizations did not have a clue in 1946 about squadron codes, combat markings etc.... Look at Memphis Belle she was displayed for almost 30 years with her training markings. So the marking you see are the marking she had when pulled from the RFC lot.

I also do not see any of the very prominent signatures on her #1 or 2 nacelles - she was called the Easter egg for a reason.


***********

To take this off topic

Another interesting link for Walnut Ridge

https://www.walnutridgearmyairfield.com ... ology.html

Some interesting entries:

1) April 9, 1946 A B-17 from Walnut Ridge was flown to Cumberland, Maryland by Harry Flood, a former B-17 pilot, where it will serve as a memorial to the men of Cumberland who served in WWII.

2) May 8, 1946 The Redwood Falls, Minnesota Junior Chamber of Commerce voted to purchase a B-17 for the high school for educational purposes. The cost will be $350. (It was flown from Walnut Ridge, Arkansas on Sunday, May 26th by Kenneth Cook, a former 8th Air Force bomber pilot with 45 missions in England.)

3) Nov 26, 1944 A B-17, Serial Number 44-8213 arrived at Walnut Ridge Army Field. This is the first recorded arrival of what would be perhaps 10,000 “warbirds,” which would be sent to Walnut Ridge for storage, sales, and salvage. They were part of the 40,000 airplanes which were deemed to be surplus to the Army Air Forces.

Note: this is one of the 96th BG ships mentioned above

4) Following that tour, one of the newspapers, the Blytheville Courier News, November 16, 1945 edition reported: “One of six salvage depots operated, more than 15,000 surplus grasshopper types and primary training planes have been sold at the Walnut Ridge depot, chiefly trainers, and more than 200 transports have been sold or leased. More than 200 aircraft have been turned over to schools and colleges for study purposes and others will be allocated for that purpose”.

Note: Read that again -- over 200 aircraft turned over to schools and more to come !!

************

Ad time

Lots of copies of book three (B-17G-35 to 45 Boeings) still available on Amazon, book 2 is almost sold out


Dave Gansz

[terveurn]

another thought

The original article mentions two interesting points that the aircraft was manufactured in 1944 and Radar equipment.

This points to a 44-8??? serial number ship.... A lot of this block was modified to PFF roles.

[jmkendall]

I hate when I spend time on a reply and it completely disappears!
4 hours, well, that is what I get for not rereading and taking notes.

I had read where the Kingman birds were specifically put there to be staged to go to the pacific and the war weary birds were left behind. As an A&P pulling the batteries is really not that big a deal, and after a year would probably need changing anyway. The control cables? More problematic but still not that big a deal. Especially since the RFC was supposed to keep all it's AC in flyable storage for at least the first few months. I have the timeline somewhere.

Lets go with this though. Let us say that the 338th was assigned a PFF bird very late in the war and 5G was shipped out; with the new ac bearing her codes. With the mention of her being one of the last built and and radar equipment, it would make sense. More so actually than her being 5G. But the problem is there is no documentation for it. Due to the war in Europe being over when she was so assigned, it may not be reasonable to think there would be.

I agree, with the PFF birds mainly being 44-8xxx and it would fit. Lets play with your serials and see what we can see.

[terveurn]

I hate when I spend time on a reply and it completely disappears!
4 hours, well, that is what I get for not rereading and taking notes.

I had read where the Kingman birds were specifically put there to be staged to go to the pacific and the war weary birds were left behind. As an A&P pulling the batteries is really not that big a deal, and after a year would probably need changing anyway. The control cables? More problematic but still not that big a deal. Especially since the RFC was supposed to keep all it's AC in flyable storage for at least the first few months. I have the timeline somewhere.

I always make a copy of my reply before submitting - been the have the burned fingers to prove.

Kingman was not a staging field - All the Kingman ships had already been in storage at South Plains for 3-5 months before sent west for final disposition (find it surprising that only one shot of South Plains with stored aircraft has surfaced).

From earlier posting, was not a big deal for the Paint and dope shops of the 8th AF units to put markings on incoming ships - roughly 1/2 a day was my understanding to do a full identification.

The crews at Kingman were not too kind when they were removing engines - pretty much cut everything between the accessory case and firewall including mounts. 5-Grand never made it out once this was accomplished.

Pretty sure depot 41 has the 5-Grand's load adjuster in their museum, another sure sign of her destruction.