Collings B-17 Crash: 909
Re: Collings B-17 Crash: 909
So much speculation, but no real hard facts. I heard something about a possibility that #4 was giving them trouble, but possibly they mistakenly feathered #3, then tried to unfeather 3 and feathered 4. I would think that if there were time for a complete feather on 4, there should have been time to unfeather 3. We will probably never know. I'm not concerned about pilot ages - there were 2 of them. They had enough hours that any event should have been an automatic response. I still don't know how it went from an original report of an engine fire, to a "faulty mag". I'm also surprised that with all the cell phones out there no videos of the approach have turned up. We'll probably never know. Dennis
Re: Collings B-17 Crash: 909
Dennis
Been involved in accident investigations; not a single fatality, but several serious when I was working for the airlines.
There is always evidence of what was happening, either instruments are broken at time of impact leaving the indicators (or the remains) frozen, to witness marks in mechanical systems in motion.
What is very evident is lack of proper procedures during this emergency... ie, the primarily reports clearly states the flaps were retracted.
We will wait for the final NTSB report but it does not look good for the crew at this time.
Still hoping photos of the wreckage secured will appear, so far it has been very quite in this regard
Been involved in accident investigations; not a single fatality, but several serious when I was working for the airlines.
There is always evidence of what was happening, either instruments are broken at time of impact leaving the indicators (or the remains) frozen, to witness marks in mechanical systems in motion.
What is very evident is lack of proper procedures during this emergency... ie, the primarily reports clearly states the flaps were retracted.
We will wait for the final NTSB report but it does not look good for the crew at this time.
Still hoping photos of the wreckage secured will appear, so far it has been very quite in this regard
Re: Collings B-17 Crash: 909
My accident involvement has all been 60 to 70 years after the accident, yet we still sometimes find contributing factors that were missed. NTSB mentioned the flap position thing too. The flap position thing doesn't mean all that much to me. You can land with flaps up, you just have a higher landing speed. The part I figure (and still wonder about) there was initial report of an engine fire. Engine fire or not, if you declare an emergency (did they?) you want to get on the ground as soon as possible. Slow flight isn't part of that plan. While I never had any multi engine time, I have to guess if you have one or more engines out, you also don't need the extra drag of extended flaps.
I also agree that control positions indicate a good part of what was going on too, but my understanding was that the cockpit was largely destroyed and it mentioned the destruction of pulleys. On #3 the mention of one blade in feather and 2 blades between feather and low pitch doesn't really tell me much. What position were the parts INSIDE of the hub?
End result is the same: we are now down one more B-17, and it takes YEARS to make another one. I am not part of the "don't fly them" crowd. I have argued that part with them. You can go see a dinosaur skeleton in a museum. You can see the interpretation (replica) of what they THINK dinosaurs looked like, but you cant see or feel one walking or making whatever sounds they may have made. As we used to say in Warbirds of America: "Keep 'Em Flying". Dennis
I also agree that control positions indicate a good part of what was going on too, but my understanding was that the cockpit was largely destroyed and it mentioned the destruction of pulleys. On #3 the mention of one blade in feather and 2 blades between feather and low pitch doesn't really tell me much. What position were the parts INSIDE of the hub?
End result is the same: we are now down one more B-17, and it takes YEARS to make another one. I am not part of the "don't fly them" crowd. I have argued that part with them. You can go see a dinosaur skeleton in a museum. You can see the interpretation (replica) of what they THINK dinosaurs looked like, but you cant see or feel one walking or making whatever sounds they may have made. As we used to say in Warbirds of America: "Keep 'Em Flying". Dennis
Re: Collings B-17 Crash: 909
Speaking way off the record, but having a B-17 type rating I can say in a situation like that you leave the flaps up. The B-17 does not accelerate well, if at all with the flaps deployed, (with 4 good engines). They produce a lot of drag, as does the gear. The gear takes around 30 seconds to extend, which they had done. The flaps, if needed are only lowered when the runway is assured. While speculation is human nature, the NTSB will figure this out.
jim
jim
Re: Collings B-17 Crash: 909
Jim
When I was with tankers (long, long, long time ago) flaps were away's down for slow flight operations - not only improved lift, but took a lot of stress off the wings on pull out.
That said, if #3 was coming out of feather and #4 was in feather, flaps up, gear down, you're in a mess of trouble if your only 200 feet from the deck.
Agree that the gear on the -17 was slow, but this does not look like a factor, the gear might never have been retracted (take-off to crash was less then 2-minutes).
Dennis, I do not think the crew of 44-83575 ever declared an emergency - the conversation was we have a problem and returning to the airport. The tower crew asked several times but I do not remember hearing a Pan-Pan-Pan.
Even burned, pullies will have witness marks, same with structure, but you are right about what does the internals of #4 tell us.
Then NTSB does indicate that the tail controls were free and that cable runs to this structure were intact.
Flaps down for tanker drop
When I was with tankers (long, long, long time ago) flaps were away's down for slow flight operations - not only improved lift, but took a lot of stress off the wings on pull out.
That said, if #3 was coming out of feather and #4 was in feather, flaps up, gear down, you're in a mess of trouble if your only 200 feet from the deck.
Agree that the gear on the -17 was slow, but this does not look like a factor, the gear might never have been retracted (take-off to crash was less then 2-minutes).
Dennis, I do not think the crew of 44-83575 ever declared an emergency - the conversation was we have a problem and returning to the airport. The tower crew asked several times but I do not remember hearing a Pan-Pan-Pan.
Even burned, pullies will have witness marks, same with structure, but you are right about what does the internals of #4 tell us.
Then NTSB does indicate that the tail controls were free and that cable runs to this structure were intact.
Flaps down for tanker drop
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Re: Collings B-17 Crash: 909
NTSB has release the final report -- 100% pilot error
https://www.usnews.com/news/us/articles ... atal-crash
Now where is the wreckage and will it be release or bailed ?
https://www.usnews.com/news/us/articles ... atal-crash
Now where is the wreckage and will it be release or bailed ?
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cvairwerks
- Posts: 42
- Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:28 pm
Re: Collings B-17 Crash: 909
I suspect that the lawyers and insurance companies have it for now.
Re: Collings B-17 Crash: 909
Well, I've seen several other Warbirds flying last summer, so is it just Collings that's shut down, or all vintage aircraft?
Re: Collings B-17 Crash: 909 - UPDATES
Final results posted on NTSB
https://data.ntsb.gov/carol-repgen/api/ ... 100356/pdf
The Accident Docket is an eye opener:
https://data.ntsb.gov/Docket?ProjectID=100356#
Video of the accident is at:
https://data.ntsb.gov/Docket/Document/d ... pt-Rel.mp4.
Both Pilot and Copilot has smoke and soot in their lungs, which mean they lived through the accident.
Assuming the wreckage was released to Stow
https://data.ntsb.gov/carol-repgen/api/ ... 100356/pdf
The Accident Docket is an eye opener:
https://data.ntsb.gov/Docket?ProjectID=100356#
Video of the accident is at:
https://data.ntsb.gov/Docket/Document/d ... pt-Rel.mp4.
Both Pilot and Copilot has smoke and soot in their lungs, which mean they lived through the accident.
Assuming the wreckage was released to Stow