The Blue Goose Revisited

[Steve Birdsall]

We’re all familiar with the tales about B-17E 41-2616, the “Blue Goose” from the 98th Bomb Squadron, 11th Bomb Group. They all seem to trace back to one original source - a 1942 interview with 11th Bomb Group commander Col. LaVerne G. "Blondy" Saunders.

Saunders was describing a Tulagi mission which he was leading, with Frank "Fritz" Waskowitz in 41-2616 on his wing. When Japanese fighters attacked head-on Saunders expected them to come at him, but instead they made a beeline for his wingman in 41-2616.

Saunders is quoted as saying, "Fritz has the only off-color plane in the outfit. It is painted a sort of baby blue and Fritz calls it his blue goose".

The story appeared in many mainland newspapers on Sunday, August 23, 1942, and on the front page of The Honolulu Advertiser.

According to Robert Stitt, author of Boeing B-17 Fortress in RAF Coastal Command Service, "Early deliveries of the B-17E variant assigned Britain and dispatched to Cheyenne for modification for the RAF, including 41-2616, were painted in either Dark Olive Drab with Neutral Grey or Temperate Land with Deep Sky having been withdrawn from a pool at Seattle”.



So, was 41-2616’s “off-color” actually this predominantly blue RAF scheme, seen above in a United Air Lines photo of 41-2622 (and in some well-known color photos of 41-9141)?

If it was, there are still unanswered questions - if 41-2616 had Temperate Land upper surfaces, were they overpainted in Hawaii to match or complement the blue lower surfaces, was the name "The Blue Goose" painted on the nose, was there accompanying artwork?

[Steve Birdsall]

I’m pretty sure everyone here is familiar with the photo of 41-9141 that I mentioned in the previous post, but I’ll add it here for the sake of completeness. It’s a Boeing Company photo.

[terveurn]

Someplace in the back of my mind is a note from the British Air Ministry complaining that the United States aircraft manufactures were not following british spec for matching paint shades or adbiding by RAF patterns for applying camouflage and that the RAF had to spend a lot of time fixing these mistakes.

So, the question comesback to what was the Blue scheme that Boeing used if it was not RAF approved specifications and shade. Was it a blue borrowed from another project.

You best bet it to talk to the people who have gone up close and personel with 41-9234 and see if there is any photos (or borrowed parts) taken from spots not exposed to light (like the tail gunners door or under inspection panels) for the correct color.

[Steve Birdsall]

This is not the camouflage scheme used on 41-9234, which was Temperate Sea and Sky. The scheme used on 41-9141 (and I think was used on 41-2616, the fabled "Blue Goose"), is Temperate Land and Deep Sky.

It certainly fits well with Saunders' description of Waskowitz's "big blue plane".

By far the best reference to all these camouflage schemes is Robert Stitt's Boeing B-17 Fortress in RAF Coastal Command Service.

[Bongo252]

A modeler by the name of Jeff Groves who had done a lot of research on the Hawaiian air depot camo schemes also postulated the color for the Blue Goose, which I have to say I had never heard of. Attached is one of Bob's photos of a model he built of the Goose and the blue painted scheme. It reminds me a bit of the "Air Superiority Blue" used on a few of the early F-15s in the 1970s but still strikes me a bit much. What is the thought of this bright blue being fact rather than something a bit more dark in shade?

[Steve Birdsall]

I think that model was never meant to be more than a fun project - the rudder stripes being the icing on the cake! But it does underline the problem that we have - just about everybody who has researched or written about 41-2616 never actually saw the plane, which arrived in Hawaii at the beginning of June 1942 and was gone by the end of September.

As for the term "blue goose", over the years it's been used to name a variety of objects in a variety of blues - from Hermann Goering's Mercedes Benz roadster to Michigan State Police patrol vehicles.

That's why I believe that 41-2616 displayed the RAF Temperate Land and Deep Sky scheme - it's the most logical explanation.

[terveurn]

Some of the problem is where was 41-2616 actually painted in this scheme.

If in HAD then I very much doubt they would have been done in a RAF Scheme.

Also doubt if done a Seattle (by Boing), so that leaves Sacramento as the logical choice.

If there is no documentation then the logical guess being what paints availabe at the depots - Sky Blue (from the PRU lines) or possible insignia blue ?

[Steve Birdsall]

Robert Stitt's research indicates that 41-2616 was one of the planes painted in RAF colors by Boeing in Seattle.

[terveurn]

Robert Stitt's research indicates that 41-2616 was one of the planes painted in RAF colors by Boeing in Seattle.

I can just see Boeing sending a painter out to the local Earl Scheib Paint & Body to get special colors just for this one B-17.

We can paint your B-17 for just $ 99.00

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Auvf7DDw5z0

If done by Boeing then the colors are stock production line color and nothing special about this aircraft except the name

[Steve Birdsall]

Well, we know of at least three B-17Es that were finished in the Temperate Land and Deep Sky scheme - 41-2615, 41-2622 and 41-9141. And, as we've made the case here, likely 41-2616.

The only description from someone who actually saw the plane that I have comes from Col. LaVerne G. Saunders, commander of the 11th Bomb Group. He variously described it as "off-color", "a sort of baby blue" and "big blue plane".

I don’t feel entitled to publish significant extracts from Robert Stitt's book here, but I know that he sometimes visits this site and may wish to add more specifics about Boeing's role. I strongly recommend anyone interested in B-17s reads the new, updated second edition of his book.

[Bongo252]

Jeff Groves (who did the model) cites "Fortress Against the Sun", pg 218 that; "Interestingly, Waskowitz' plane, the Blue Goose, was actually painted a bright, light blue. Perhaps as a test for a new camouflage scheme, B-17E 41-2616 had been given a coat, top to bottom, of Light Glossy Blue Duco paint at the Hawaiian Air Depot. With its highly unusual color, the B-17 and its crew were soon known to everybody." I wonder, if the statement is correct, if the shade might be found on some old Duco color chart?

[Steve Birdsall]

I honestly don't know where Gene Salecker got that stuff from - he cites Martin Bowman and Ernie McDowell, so I presume their earlier books were his source. In his book, Ernie McDowell just ran with what we'd all been speculating about at the time. Trust me, the Guesstimator was running hot. Ernie even came up with a sideview of "The Blue Goose" as he imagined it - and it was 100% guesswork. I don't know what information Martin Bowman used, but I suspect it was the same source.

That sideview, in Ernie's 1987 Squadron book, bears a striking resemblance to that model you posted a photo of - right down to the red-and-white rudder stripes and red-centered cocarde that had been abandoned well before 41-2616 got to Hawaii.

That's why I keep laboring the point that the only description that we have of 41-2616 from someone who actually saw it comes from Colonel LaVerne G. Saunders.

[terveurn]

Steve

Could these B-17E have been done as a precurser to the F-9 progam to see if the RAF Photo Reconn Blue would be effective ?

[Steve Birdsall]

No, according to Robert Stitt they were painted Temperate Land and Deep Sky "in anticipation of Fortresses being delivered to Bomber Command for the high-level bombing role". As we know, any plans to use them that way were abandoned.

[aerovin2]

Steve, I really appreciate your dogged research on things such as this paint scheme. Lots of incorrect information out there that gets started and then becomes the reference source. I know that firsthand since I have put out there such incorrect information. It takes patience and time to sift out the primary sources that will someday provide the accurate and correct answer to this mystery.