C-47B wrote:The Mary Ann was apparently photographed by the AAF on 6 April 1943, according to two different books that I have. The two authors, Jeffery Ethell and Warren Bodie, are not known for publishing BS. I would guess that the photos published by these two well regarded authors are authentic.
Mary Ann can't be 38-262, which was destroyed in a fatal accident on April 2, 1943 at Sebring, Florida.
Dan and Dan, have you seen these photos of the Mary Ann that were shot on 6 April 1943?
TonyM.
I've seen both photos. I don't have the Bodie book but have the Ethell book. If they are the same Mary Ann, she got new props and new engine cowlings between the movie and the color shot
The thing that makes me lean toward 38-212 is the unusual placement of its Serial Number; all the other B-17Bs, B-17Cs, and B-17Ds that I have seen with wartime USAAC/USAAF S/Ns have the number where the "05564" '9001" and "8211" were on the rudders of these aircraft.
38-212 has obviously had the S/N painted in a different location than any of the other aircraft I have so far seen, even "3092", and this is what persuades me, at least until I see further evidence.
I'd very much like to see those photos, but I've already seen the photos of the nose of "'Mary-Ann' From the Movie Air Force"
Last edited by pokryshkin on Fri Apr 03, 2009 5:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
I didn't realize you had put one on this forum. I've seen this nose shot of
MARY ANN, STAR OF "AIR FORCE".
I have to say it again. I need more info or photos to change my current view that 38-212 is "10". It could be 38-259, 38-260, 38-269, or 38-270, however.
As the Enterprise's computer, voiced by the late Majel Barrett Roddenberry, would say, "Insufficient data"
Now, all we have to do is find a Record Card that lists that date as when the aircraft was at DC! (I can't recall the name of Washington DC's base at that time)
IF the Aircraft Record Card for one of these Serial Numbers shows that the aircraft was on a flight to DC or even FROM DC on that date, we have our match!
38-212, 38-259, 38-260, 28-269, 38-270.
Possible but unlikely candidates would be 39-003, and 39-007.
There were two Army Air Forces Fields at Washington D.C. during WWII:
Bolling Field
Camp Springs Army Air Field
As for the Aircraft Record Cards, of which I own all B-17C and B-17D reels, they will not reflect an individual flight to Washington D.C.
They will only indicate if the airplane was assigned to a unit there. There is also a new book treating the topic of how to read the Aircraft History Cards, which is like reading a dead language. The book is written by my friend Bob Mann and it was published by McFarland & Co. Inc. Publishers, the same people who published my well received WWII Aviation Reference book. So if you plan on buying the microfilm from AFHRA, it would be a good idea to purchase this book.
I guess I'll get the B-17B reels, there are two of them, and see what they say about the assignments of these airplanes during WWII. Why doesn't someone write to Warner Brothers and see if they know anything. I am sure they have a research department.
Dear Sir,
It sounds like a great idea, but I'm not sure I can afford it.
I can only email TimeWarner and ask them what, if anything, they know.
I have been working on a shoestring since moving up here, and have gotten incredible help from the other people interested in this research project, or who are involved in doing their own research, as well as the AFHRO and Smithsonian Air and Space Museum Archives Research Division.
I only wish I could afford half of what most of you guys have!
I will continue to try everything I can think of. IF anyone has a way to check out those initial startup/taxi and "hold for takeoff" sequences shot through a night filter, you will likely find the correct S/N for "10" "Mary Ann" "05564".
I've been a student of aviation ad far back as I can recall: I was able to ID anything that flew over our house a block south of Flagler Dog Track by age 3: I distinctly recall seeing a C-46 eastbound from the 20th Street Airport flying over our house, while I was sitting on the front steps - steps almost as tall as I was, sitting down! (we'd moved down to Miami in May '48, when I was 6 months old)
Dad says he found out I could read by catching me one day when he came home from PAN AM at MIA back in the early '50's to find me reading his just-arrived copy of Aviation Week turned to an article comparing Axial-flow and Centrifugal flow compressors (Jet engines - Axial flow is what we have now; Centrifugal flow is the Rolls Royce Nene/VK-1/J-?? [Hunter?\Meteor??/Mig-15/F-86] ) which had no pictures in it - and he could see my eyes moving as though reading the article.
Later, when he got a chance to read it through, the next day, when he got home, he asked me about it, and I apparently gave him sensible answers....Just so you don't think I'm a totally ignorant "johnny-come-lately"about aviation.....{also, I was so sick most of the time that all I could DO was read - aviation books, naturally!!}
Regards,
Dan K.
PS - back to our subject at hand: It seems that if I can either locate my original DVD or get hold of another original (the one I have now is off of a PBS broadcast back in '93 that I'd VHS'd), it MIGHT be possible to get a better paused view of those taxi-out scenes and the hold-for-takeoff scenes and THEN see what's on the top of that rudder!
Last edited by pokryshkin on Thu Apr 09, 2009 10:10 pm, edited 3 times in total.
There were two Army Air Forces Fields at Washington D.C. during WWII:
Bolling Field
Camp Springs Army Air Field
As for the Aircraft Record Cards, of which I own all B-17C and B-17D reels, they will not reflect an individual flight to Washington D.C.
They will only indicate if the airplane was assigned to a unit there. There is also a new book treating the topic of how to read the Aircraft History Cards, which is like reading a dead language. The book is written by my friend Bob Mann and it was published by McFarland & Co. Inc. Publishers, the same people who published my well received WWII Aviation Reference book. So if you plan on buying the microfilm from AFHRA, it would be a good idea to purchase this book.
I guess I'll get the B-17B reels, there are two of them, and see what they say about the assignments of these airplanes during WWII. Why doesn't someone write to Warner Brothers and see if they know anything. I am sure they have a research department.
C-47 Crew Chief
I e-mailed Warner Brothers a couple days ago. No reply as of yet. I came across a book on abebooks.com that is about Hendricks Field, Sebring Florida in 1942. Naturally I had to get it. Hopefully it might provide a lead or two when it arrivesl
We have only just begun to fight! We are going to nail this down if it's the last thing....er....well...we'll give it a good shot anyway
Oh no. DanPokryshkin, don't get me wrong--I didn't mean to offend you. You have been doing a super job on this and I only wish that I had the time to dig into this as much as you. But now I see at what cost to you.
Didn't mean to hang one on you there. Maybe the tone of the post was a little too much. Talking on here is not like being in person where the nuance of inflection and gesture can be fine tuned.
Sorry about your circumstances. I was going to become an educator too, but when I realized that all of my college instructors were working three jobs I stayed where I was at and now I am stuck; I have a Plan B and I'll now if it will work out in about a week. If not I'll be retiring soon and starting a second career. If the economy will let me. Anyways I hope that every thing works out for you and your family real soon.
Back to the Mary Ann. Believe me, I have been checking in here every single day just to see how much more you have dug up. You guys are getting there. I have been working on and off on this question for about five years. We hashed some of these same questions out on army air forces a few years ago. I suggested it was a B-17B and they almost sent the torch carrying mob after me. Well, now we know that it is.
I really believe that you guys will solve this soon. I'll get those cards and let you know what is up on the aircraft assignments.
Also, there were several more B-17B airplanes involved in minor accidents than the number I had listed in previous posts on this subject. There are no photos on the microfilm reels for those accidents like on the others I have listed. Those accident photos reflect the B-17C type modifications to the B-17B airplanes we had listed.
It is now MYturn to apologize, for "venting" in this scholarly and erudite forum! (rough day!)
I agree that with so many dedicated personnel on this case, that it WILL be solved.
It's only a case of when!!
Once again, appeal is made for someone with photographic enhancement software to check out those taxi-start and runway-start sequences to unmask the aircraft.
Another thought which has begun to percolate. my wife (Mensa material - one of the founders was a busride friend of hers down in Dad/Broward when she was working for that Oral Surgeon) agrees that it's just possible that ANOTHER B-17B was designated as the "publicity" "Mary-Ann" and that this "imposter" is the one photographed and flown around to these various bond drives/premiers. Any thoughts on this possiblity?
Change of subject again, back to "Mary-Ann"'s ID: I'm wondering why 38-212 should have its S/N painted so low on the rudder; You can see that 39-001's rudder and fin have been repainted/overpainted at least twice.
Another point is that 38-212 left service - or at least was scrapped - AFTER 39-001, as "9001" has the roundel, whereas "8212" has the "star-and-bar" possibly even with the final BLUE outer surround to the bars!
Any thoughts on this?
All three of my PittBull mix dogs can do the "Mr. Moto" trick as performed by the famous "Air Force" dog Tripoli, providing us with hours of amusement, just as in WWII.
All three of my PittBull mix dogs can do the "Mr. Moto" trick as performed by the famous "Air Force" dog Tripoli, providing us with hours of amusement, just as in WWII.
This is interesting: From the February 8, 1943 issue of Time magazine's review of Air Force (emphasis added):
How It Was Made. Air Force was a tremendous undertaking, even for Hollywood. Most of it was made near Tampa. For flying sequences he had a real Flying Fortress (since lost in action in the South Pacific) and for interior shots a $40,000 Fortress model was built. Also required: a technical crew of 100 men, three camera planes, ten cameras, Army planes. The Army opened its files to Hawks and helped him make it.
OK, I think we can discount the South Pacific part, but lost in action? Crashed on a training mission maybe? Hmm...
