A long shot, but worth a try

[Dan Johnson]

This image caught my eye on eBay and I grabbed it. Must be a 17 on the scrap heap as it looks like the glass is missing or spidered in places. no clue what's on top of it, and the angle of the fuselage looks like it might be lying flat.

Anyway, the kill markings and mission symbols made me wonder of the PTO experts might recognize which 17 this might be

[terveurn]

Couple items caught my eye -- upper turret is in the process of being removed (you can see the timbers under the turret ring).

The buildings in the background makes me think this is a ex PTO ship being used stateside

[OldBillB17F]

In my humble opinion, I think it might be B-17E 41-2467 being utilized as an airframe trainer at Amarillo AAF. Bomb markings and Japanese flags look like they line up accordingly with the above photo, though a column of flags appear to be missing in final image below.









https://www.pacificwrecks.com/aircraft/ ... -2467.html

[jmkendall]

I thought it might be the rose from the photo's then I noticed that the number of kill markings did not match. I counted the missions and it did not match the newspaper article, although it was close.

[jmkendall]

does anyone else see what looks like a painted over reclining nude woman under the bomb markings. It kinda looks like the same as "Yankee Diddler". As an aside I have excellent color differention. I've been known many times in my Army Career to see things that other people miss, yet are obvious as day to me. I did not know until my 30s, when I participated in a color/eye study at The Ohio State University, that I see very slightly into the infra red, and can differentiate between shades much more easily than the normal population.

Having said that...it looks like nose art to me that was painted over at one time and then the cover up paint weathered away, to a degree.

Anyone?

[Steve Birdsall]

Dan, you’ve done it again! That’s an extremely interesting photo. I think the similarities between the markings on this plane and San Antonio Rose are too great to be coincidental, and that’s also a returned SOPAC B-17.

Apparently those markings were painted on the returning planes by order of General Ray Owens, the 13th Air Force commander. I believe they were considered to be a fair estimate of the record of these war-weary aircraft.

Another example of this is 41-2668, Chosef, which reportedly displayed 80 bomb symbols and 14 Japanese flags.

[OldBillB17F]

There is a patch job visible right below the pilot's access panel on the Ebay photo. That same patch job looks to be visible in a few of the photos I posted of San Antonio Rose.

[cvairwerks]

From what I'm seeing, unless all the markings were repainted on the bottom photo of the 'Rose, they are two different ships. The top photo has the bomb marks aligned high enough, that the longeron rivet line splits them. On the bottom photo of the 'Rose, they are positioned below the rivet line. Also, in the 1st photo, the second line of bomb marks lines up with the 2nd row of flags, while in the bottom photo, they line up with the 3rd row.

Additionally, the article at Pacific Wrecks, says the Rose flew 15 flags, while the top photo has 16.

[varsity07840]

the whole airframe looks to have been repainted. Regarding the markings, the same thing happened with the Swoose when it was stripped to NMF. The markings were repainted but not at all the same.

[jmkendall]

Here is the thing, someone mentioned that these were repainted with combat markings before being sent home. Under orders of the CG 13th AF.

You have to wonder if he was anticipating a war bond tour? Or other potential PR moment. Or perhaps he just wanted to send the old warriors home in full armor instead of the support craft they had been turned into.

Either way, one can see a full repaint with new markings being done at the same depot. Which would nicely explain why the markings are simliar in size number, placement and style. In that particular case I think we need a lot more research, and I think we can reasonably exclude "The San Antonio Rose", because of the apt observations of Cvair, I believe it was. It might also explain why I'm seeing nose art peaking through from a thin and faded "top coat".

The problem of course is that almost all in theater shots I can find are from the right side. I think if we can examine the four E's sent back together we can figure out which is which, providing we can find the sn of the unknown 4th ac. Which this probably is!

[Steve Birdsall]

San Antonio Rose was one of a four-plane flight that returned to the ZI in October 1943. The other three were 41-2444, one of the planes that had been overpainted on its arrival in Hawaii in December 1941, 41-2668 and 41-9222.

The bombs and flags were painted on 41-2668 and the others at the Tontouta air depot on New Caledonia or Espiritu Santo.

Whether Dan's photo shows a B-17E from that particular flight of four is unknown. Dan, any clues at all from the seller of the photo?

[Chris Brame]

This must be one of them, but which one?

[Steve Birdsall]

That flight of four that included San Antonio Rose didn't leave Espiritu Santo until 9 October 1943.

[Dan Johnson]

Nothing to give any help from the seller. It was just another guy in an airplane image. Good to see you here Steve. Hope all is as well as can be down under.

Dan

[OldBillB17F]

For comparison, here are the other B-17Es that returned with 41-2667.

Here is 41-2444



I have the below listed in my files as 41-2444, yet they do not show a tail number. Therefore, I am not positive the following are indeed -2444.