Possible Final list of "MODERNIZED" B-17B aircraft

[pokryshkin]

Now for some mind-bending modifications to this list:
38-211 "18" DID have the complete "surgery" as we have seen.
38-212 "8212" in Lowery photo had a Boeing stay, 7-15/8-14-41.
38-213 " 12"(?) was at Sebring for filming, and apparently had top /sides
38-215 "1" had only the sides done, as had
38-216 "2" which also had only the sides done, from a pre-crash photo
38-218 "Mildred" had the complete job, as seen in the photo
38-221, from the data, may have had only the waists, maybe radio too.
38-258, sans data - may only have had the waists -maybe radio
38-259, "12"? "Modernized" stamp had waists -and maybe radio- only.
38-260, "02?"Boeing, 7/15-8/14-41, means complete B-17C upgrade.
38-261, "07" Boeing stay, 7-15/8-17-41+photo evidence B-17C upgrade.
38-269, "12"? "Modernized", means waists and possible radio room
38-270, "17" Boeing stay, 7-15/8-10-41,+photo evidence B-17C upgrade.
38-583, absent more info, only waists and maybe hatch
38-584, "10" Boeing 11-25 August 1941, obvious full B-17C upgrade.
39-001, "15", "Modernized", only waists/radio confirmed.....
39-003, "08?" Boeing, return Westover 8-14-41, likely full B-17C upgrade.
39-006, "04", Boeing 7-15/8-15-41,+photos=complete B-17C upgrade.
39-007, "12"?"Modernized" means waists, possibly radio window also.

INCLUDING 38-211, this makes 19 aircraf: 9 complete, (with 10 to locate), and 10 partial, upgrade/modernizations!!!

These are the machines that were upgraded to whatever degree could be done to each at that time with whatever was available.

This means that the KNOWN COMPLETELY upgraded aircraft were:
38-211 "18"
38-212 "05?"
38-218
38-219
38-260 "08?"
38-261 "07"
38-270 "17"
38-584 "10"
39-003 "16?"
39-006 "04"

making a total of 10 fully upgrade aircraft that, either from the visual evidence, or from the fact of only having the Boeing entry and exit dates, WITHOUT the "Modernization" stamp, had the complete job, including "bathtub."
It only requires two other aircraft, that were fully modernized, that would give 9 required aircraft for those formation scenes - and also with maybe B-17D 40-3065. ("02?") for the 9-aircraft formation shots?

Also in the film were:39-001 "15" which must have looked exactly like "12",(which could have been 39-007). Both of which still have the belly "blister."

(38-218 and 38-219 were never at Sebring)

Please advise

Thank you!!!!

Dan Katz

With timely help from Dik Shepherd's IARC holdings, here are the latest results of aircraft modernized, either completely at Boeing, or else partially, (flush waists, nose[gun mounts+ADF "football)or even imcompletely upgraded,(+radio room) at San Antonio Air Depot:
38-211 "18" completely done at Wright Field
38-212 Boeing, 7-15/8-14-41 likely full B-17C Standard upgrade
38-213 crash photos=flush waists+radio, on bathtub?
38-214 ?
38-215 "1" San Antonio Air Depot, 8-04/8-14-41 "Modernized" waists
38-216 "2" Flush waists only - photo
38-217 S.A.A.D. 6-28/9-27-41 "On Temporary Loan" - to train modifiers?
38-218 "Mildred" photo shows complete B-17C upgrade
38-219 crash photo Ecuador=flush waists/radio, rests on bathtub
38-220 S.A.A.D. 7-30/8-20-41
38-221 S..A.A.D. 7-30/8-19-41 "Modernized"
38-222 ?
38-223 ?
38-258 S.A.A.D. 3-14/25-42, Check IARC for July-August 1941???
38-259 "12?" S.A.A.D. 7-14/8-12-41 "Modernized"waist/radio crash photos
38-260 "02?" Boeing 7-15/8-14/41, LIKELY full B-17C upgrade
38-261 "07" Boeing 7-25/8-17-41 full B-17C seen in Air Force
38-262 S.A.A.D. 7-14/8-12-41 "Modernized"
38-263 ?
38-264 ?
38-265 ?
38-266 ?
38-267 ?
38-268 ?
38-269 Wright Field 1-19-40, S.A.A.D. 7-25/8-12-41
38-270 "17" Boeing 7-15/8-10-41, Full B-17C Standard=Hendricks photo
38-583 ?
38-584 "10" Boeing 8-11/25-41, full B-17C upgrade seen inAir Force
38-610 S.A.A.D. 7-14/8-12-41 "Modernized"
39-001 "15" S.A.A.D. 7-25/8-19-41 "Modernzied" waists/radio in photo
39-002 ?
39-003 "05?" Boeing, return to Westover 8-14-41, likely full B-17C
39-004 S.A.A.D. 7-27/8-26-41
39-005 ?
39-006 "04" Boeing 7-15/8-15-41 crash photos=waists/radio/on bathtub
39-007 "12?" S.A.A.D. 7-14/8-12-41 "Modernized"
39-008 S.A.A.D. 7-14/8-12-41 "Modernized"
39-009 S.A.A.D. 7-14/8-12-41 "Modernized"
39-010 ?

This is the most complete record I have available as of 01:43 EDT, 21 May 2009.
The CURRENT AVAILABLE informations breaks down thus:

Done at Wright Field: 38-211,

Done at Boeing, or likely done at Boeing, with full B-17C upgrade:
38-212, 38-218, 38-260, 38-261, 38-270, 38-584, 39-003, 39-006, for a currently known total of 8 B-17C-Standard aircraft, plus 38-211.

Done at San Antonio Air Depot, with only waists:
38-215, 38-216

Done at San Antonio, waists AND radio:
38-213, 38-219, 38-259, 38-262, 38-269, 38-610, 39-001, 39-004,
39-007, 39-008, 39-009, for a known total of 11 partially upgraded aircraft, photos if 38-219, 38-269, 39-001, all show flush waists AND radio positons.

STILL UNKNOWN:
38-214, 38-222. 38-223, 38-263, 38-264, 38-265, 38-266, 38-267, 38-268,
38-583, 39-002, 39-005, 39-010, for a total of 13 aircraft which may, or may not, have been upgraded, either totally or partially.

Respectfully submitted,

Dennis L. "Dan" Katz

The website got nervous when I had so much to say, and logged me in as "guest"...!

Regardless, the above is the best and most current info to this date.

Any and all additions, corrections, and information of any sort regarding this list of airplanes is more than welcome.

Gratefully,

Dan Katz

[pokryshkin]

Now for some mind-bending modifications to this list:
38-211 "18" DID have the complete "surgery" as we have seen.
38-212 "8212" in Lowery photo had a Boeing stay, 7-15/8-14-41.
38-213 " 12"(?) was at Sebring for filming, and apparently had top /sides
38-215 "1" had only the sides done, as had
38-216 "2" which also had only the sides done, from a pre-crash photo
38-218 "Mildred" had the complete job, as seen in the photo
38-221, from the data, may have had only the waists, maybe radio too.
38-258, sans data - may only have had the waists -maybe radio
38-259, "12"? "Modernized" stamp had waists -and maybe radio- only.
38-260, "02?"Boeing, 7/15-8/14-41, means complete B-17C upgrade.
38-261, "07" Boeing stay, 7-15/8-17-41+photo evidence B-17C upgrade.
38-269, "12"? "Modernized", means waists and possible radio room
38-270, "17" Boeing stay, 7-15/8-10-41,+photo evidence B-17C upgrade.
38-583, absent more info, only waists and maybe hatch
38-584, "10" Boeing 11-25 August 1941, obvious full B-17C upgrade.
39-001, "15", "Modernized", only waists/radio confirmed.....
39-003, "08?" Boeing, return Westover 8-14-41, likely full B-17C upgrade.
39-006, "04", Boeing 7-15/8-15-41,+photos=complete B-17C upgrade.
39-007, "12"?"Modernized" means waists, possibly radio window also.

INCLUDING 38-211, this makes 19 aircraf: 9 complete, (with 10 to locate), and 10 partial, upgrade/modernizations!!!

These are the machines that were upgraded to whatever degree could be done to each at that time with whatever was available.

This means that the KNOWN COMPLETELY upgraded aircraft were:
38-211 "18"
38-212 "05?"
38-218
38-219
38-260 "08?"
38-261 "07"
38-270 "17"
38-584 "10"
39-003 "16?"
39-006 "04"

making a total of 10 fully upgrade aircraft that, either from the visual evidence, or from the fact of only having the Boeing entry and exit dates, WITHOUT the "Modernization" stamp, had the complete job, including "bathtub."
It only requires two other aircraft, that were fully modernized, that would give 9 required aircraft for those formation scenes - and also with maybe B-17D 40-3065. ("02?") for the 9-aircraft formation shots?

Also in the film were:39-001 "15" which must have looked exactly like "12",(which could have been 39-007). Both of which still have the belly "blister."

(38-218 and 38-219 were never at Sebring)

Please advise

Thank you!!!!

Dan Katz

With timely help from Dik Shepherd's IARC holdings, here are the latest results of aircraft modernized, either completely at Boeing, or else partially, (flush waists, nose[gun mounts+ADF "football)or even imcompletely upgraded,(+radio room) at San Antonio Air Depot:
38-211 "18" completely done at Wright Field
38-212 Boeing, 7-15/8-14-41 likely full B-17C Standard upgrade
38-213 crash photos=flush waists+radio, on bathtub?
38-214 ?
38-215 "1" San Antonio Air Depot, 8-04/8-14-41 "Modernized" waists
38-216 "2" Flush waists only - photo
38-217 S.A.A.D. 6-28/9-27-41 "On Temporary Loan" - to train modifiers?
38-218 "Mildred" photo shows complete B-17C upgrade
38-219 crash photo Ecuador=flush waists/radio, rests on bathtub
38-220 S.A.A.D. 7-30/8-20-41
38-221 S..A.A.D. 7-30/8-19-41 "Modernized"
38-222 ?
38-223 ?
38-258 S.A.A.D. 3-14/25-42, Check IARC for July-August 1941???
38-259 "12?" S.A.A.D. 7-14/8-12-41 "Modernized"waist/radio crash photos
38-260 "02?" Boeing 7-15/8-14/41, LIKELY full B-17C upgrade
38-261 "07" Boeing 7-25/8-17-41 full B-17C upgrade seen in Air Force
38-262 S.A.A.D. 7-14/8-12-41 "Modernized"
38-263 ?
38-264 ?
38-265 ?
38-266 ?
38-267 ?
38-268 ?
38-269 Wright Field 1-19-40, S.A.A.D. 7-25/8-12-41
38-270 "17" Boeing 7-15/8-10-41, Full B-17C Standard=Hendricks photo
38-583 ?
38-584 "10" Boeing 8-11/25-41, full B-17C upgrade seen inAir Force
38-610 S.A.A.D. 7-14/8-12-41 "Modernized"
39-001 "15" S.A.A.D. 7-25/8-19-41 "Modernzied" waists/radio in photo
39-002 ?
39-003 "05?" Boeing, return to Westover 8-14-41, likely full B-17C
39-004 S.A.A.D. 7-27/8-26-41
39-005 ?
39-006 "04" Boeing 7-15/8-15-41 crash photos=waists/radio/on bathtub
39-007 "12?" S.A.A.D. 7-14/8-12-41 "Modernized"
39-008 S.A.A.D. 7-14/8-12-41 "Modernized"
39-009 S.A.A.D. 7-14/8-12-41 "Modernized"
39-010 ?

This is the most complete record I have available as of 01:43 EDT, 21 May 2009.
The CURRENT AVAILABLE informations breaks down thus:

Done at Wright Field: 38-211,

Done at Boeing, or likely done at Boeing, with full B-17C upgrade:
38-212, 38-218, 38-260, 38-261, 38-270, 38-584, 39-003, 39-006, for a currently known total of 8 B-17C-Standard aircraft, plus 38-211.

Done at San Antonio Air Depot, with only waists:
38-215, 38-216

Done at San Antonio, waists AND radio:
38-213, 38-219, 38-259, 38-262, 38-269, 38-610, 39-001, 39-004,
39-007, 39-008, 39-009, for a known total of 11 partially upgraded aircraft, photos if 38-219, 38-269, 39-001, all show flush waists AND radio positons.

STILL UNKNOWN:
38-214, 38-222. 38-223, 38-263, 38-264, 38-265, 38-266, 38-267, 38-268,
38-583, 39-002, 39-005, 39-010, for a total of 13 aircraft which may, or may not, have been upgraded, either totally or partially.

Respectfully submitted,

Dennis L. "Dan" Katz

This means that two-thirds of the 39 B-17B aircraft built are now known to have either been fully upgraded to B-17C Standard, or else they are known to have been partialy upgraded, that is, the waist side gun positions were modernized to the B-17C type, along with the nose gun mountings and Airborne Direction Finder equipment being changed from a giant D/F Loop to a smaller loop, enclosed in an aerodynamic "football" housing.
Again, AT THIS WRITING, only 9 aircraft out of the 19 that Boeing modified up to B-17C Standard are known.
Again, AT THIS WRITING, only 2 partially upgraded aircraft are known, with only the waist and nose upgrades.
Yet again, AT THIS WRITING, only 3 mostly upgraded aircraft are known, with the radio room upper gun position brought up to B-17C Standard AS WELL AS THE WAISTS AND NOSE.
Finally, AT THIS WRITING, there are 8 aircraft whose level of upgrade is NOT known.
AT THIS WRITING, this leaves 13 aircraft, one-third of the entire production run, totally unknown as to whether they were brought up to full B-17C Standard, partially upgraded, mostly upgraded, or perhaps even not upgraded at all!!!

Respectfully submitted,

Dan Katz

[Second Air Force]

Hopefully these photos will help fill in one of the blanks in this research. I'm quite certain that the airplane in the background is 38-268.


A closer view:


Here is the nose of the same machine, Moonbeam McSwine. The photos were taken at the Amarillo AAF B-17 Mechanic School in '44.


Scott